Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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Nick_A
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Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

Post by Nick_A »

Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance. ~ Plato

Modern philosophy is the endless debate between opinions. But can a person experience knowledge by transcending our reliance on opinions?

Plato explains our four cognitive states:

Noesis (immediate intuition, apprehension, or mental 'seeing' of principles)

Dianoia (discursive thought)

Pistis (belief or confidence)

Eikasia (delusion or sheer conjecture)


Eikasia, Pistis, and Dianoia, create the opinions of our senses in the visible world. But noesis is the experience of the greater reality of the intellectual realm above what our senses can experience. Has anyone experienced it? Apparently Einstein did and explains why he believes it more valuable than dianoia.
1930
"Many people think that the progress of the human race is based on experiences of an empirical, critical nature, but I say that true knowledge is to be had only through a philosophy of deduction. For it is intuition that improves the world, not just following the trodden path of thought. Intuition makes us look at unrelated facts and then think about them until they can all be brought under one law. To look for related facts means holding onto what one has instead of searching for new facts. Intuition is the father of new knowledge, while empiricism is nothing but an accumulation of old knowledge. Intuition, not intellect, is the ‘open sesame’ of yourself." -- Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 16.), conversation March 4, 1930
Philosophers argue opinions. But how many have the quality of consciousness and the ability for conscious attention essential to experience noesis or intuition? When we cannot, and deny its value, aren't our opinions just ignorance we defend in pursuit of wisdom and the aim of philosophy.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Nick_A wrote: April 9th, 2021, 4:58 pm Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance. ~ Plato

Modern philosophy is the endless debate between opinions. But can a person experience knowledge by transcending our reliance on opinions?
No. The confidence we place in our knowledge is a spectrum, with opinion sitting somewhere in the middle. We can only "transcend our reliance on opinion" by acquiring knowledge in which we have greater confidence. It isn't an internal thing, a way in which humanity can evolve and progress. It simply involves learning more.
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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Nick_A wrote: April 9th, 2021, 4:58 pm how many have the quality of consciousness and the ability for conscious attention essential to experience noesis or intuition? When we cannot, and deny its value, aren't our opinions just ignorance we defend in pursuit of wisdom and the aim of philosophy.
Is there a special type of knowledge that only special people with special minds can appreciate? No. There is no Knowledge Elite capable of knowing things that lesser beings cannot appreciate. The achievement of understanding, of anything, at any level, is demanding, but not beyond many/most human beings, if they have the time and inclination to put their minds to it.
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

Post by Nick_A »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 10th, 2021, 8:57 am
Nick_A wrote: April 9th, 2021, 4:58 pm Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance. ~ Plato

Modern philosophy is the endless debate between opinions. But can a person experience knowledge by transcending our reliance on opinions?
No. The confidence we place in our knowledge is a spectrum, with opinion sitting somewhere in the middle. We can only "transcend our reliance on opinion" by acquiring knowledge in which we have greater confidence. It isn't an internal thing, a way in which humanity can evolve and progress. It simply involves learning more.
Hi P-C

Do you recognize a difference between knowing and understanding? A person can know many facts but unable to understand them; see how they exist as one.

People can see many colors and some are more color sensitive than others. They can learn more facts about different colors. They can debate their preferences or what we call "taste". Yet their different qualities of vibrations all exist within white light.

The philosopher whose goal is wisdom doesn't need more facts about colors but the ability to contemplate and experience their origin or white light

A perfect circle is good example of what Plato called a form. Our senses are only capable of experiencing the virtual infinity of circles but can only intellectually admit as an idea the existence of a perfect circle from which all the particular expressions of circles devolve.

A moral form is the same idea. On the visible plane Man has many opinions of justice. But what is justice as a form like white light from which all the opinions about justice have devolved?

Socrates came to realize he had knowledge of particulars but ignorant of forms. This is very rare which is why the Oracle said he was the wisest man in Athens and admitted "I know nothing"

Science is attracted to particulars or fragments of the whole while philosophy as the love of wisdom is attracted to wholeness or the forms. Can these two directions leading to truth become united as one; facts and objective values? Not yet IMO. Too much arguing to do first.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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Nick_A wrote: ↑Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:58 pm
how many have the quality of consciousness and the ability for conscious attention essential to experience noesis or intuition? When we cannot, and deny its value, aren't our opinions just ignorance we defend in pursuit of wisdom and the aim of philosophy.

Is there a special type of knowledge that only special people with special minds can appreciate? No. There is no Knowledge Elite capable of knowing things that lesser beings cannot appreciate. The achievement of understanding, of anything, at any level, is demanding, but not beyond many/most human beings, if they have the time and inclination to put their minds to it.
It isn't a matter of a special type of knowledge but rather the human potential for inwardly turning towards the light with the whole of oneself rather than remaining fixated on the shadows on the wall in Plato's Cave. It is rejected in modern times in favor of defending indoctrinated shadows.
In contrast, noesis presupposes a soul that has turned away from specific selfish concerns to seek the Good itself. With this change in mental orientation — this Pauline metanoia or Plotinian epistrophe — we may then begin to see things more truly, and in their proper relation to one another. We may better think, judge — and therefore act — according to natural law and right reason. We will consequently be more harmonized with the external world as well as within ourselves.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

Post by Terrapin Station »

Nick_A wrote: April 9th, 2021, 4:58 pm Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance. ~ Plato

Modern philosophy is the endless debate between opinions. But can a person experience knowledge by transcending our reliance on opinions?

Plato explains our four cognitive states:

Noesis (immediate intuition, apprehension, or mental 'seeing' of principles)

Dianoia (discursive thought)

Pistis (belief or confidence)

Eikasia (delusion or sheer conjecture)


Eikasia, Pistis, and Dianoia, create the opinions of our senses in the visible world. But noesis is the experience of the greater reality of the intellectual realm above what our senses can experience. Has anyone experienced it? Apparently Einstein did and explains why he believes it more valuable than dianoia.
1930
"Many people think that the progress of the human race is based on experiences of an empirical, critical nature, but I say that true knowledge is to be had only through a philosophy of deduction. For it is intuition that improves the world, not just following the trodden path of thought. Intuition makes us look at unrelated facts and then think about them until they can all be brought under one law. To look for related facts means holding onto what one has instead of searching for new facts. Intuition is the father of new knowledge, while empiricism is nothing but an accumulation of old knowledge. Intuition, not intellect, is the ‘open sesame’ of yourself." -- Albert Einstein, in Einstein and the Poet – In Search of the Cosmic Man by William Hermanns (Branden Press, 1983, p. 16.), conversation March 4, 1930
Philosophers argue opinions. But how many have the quality of consciousness and the ability for conscious attention essential to experience noesis or intuition? When we cannot, and deny its value, aren't our opinions just ignorance we defend in pursuit of wisdom and the aim of philosophy.
Why wouldn't noesis simply be a factor of how your individual brain happens to work (at a level of logical abstraction)?
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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T S
Why wouldn't noesis simply be a factor of how your individual brain happens to work (at a level of logical abstraction)?
In a sense it is. First of all Opinion is defined as receiving new impressions and creating new facts. It is the work of our computer mind. Noesis in contrast is defined as remembering the Eternal and immutable natures of reality or the forms.

Dianoia is the experience and interpretation of our senses while noesis is the experience or remembering of our essence of what has always existed.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

Post by Terrapin Station »

Nick_A wrote: April 10th, 2021, 4:15 pm Noesis in contrast is defined as remembering the Eternal and immutable natures of reality or the forms.
First off, what would even support the reality of forms? Secondly, what would support intuition as tapping into something eternal or immutable? It's just a factor of how an individual's brain works. And different individuals' brains work in different ways.
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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Terrapin Station wrote: April 10th, 2021, 5:56 pm
Nick_A wrote: April 10th, 2021, 4:15 pm Noesis in contrast is defined as remembering the Eternal and immutable natures of reality or the forms.
First off, what would even support the reality of forms? Secondly, what would support intuition as tapping into something eternal or immutable? It's just a factor of how an individual's brain works. And different individuals' brains work in different ways.
That is the purpose of philosophy. It helps you to remember what has been forgotten and our remembrance, the AHA moment, is what supports it. I can say to myself that science can prove the vibratory relationship between colors and white light. Is it really that much of a stretch to open to the idea of the relationship between particulars and their essence in forms? We can consciously contemplate forms which may enable us to experience them through noesis which is above what our senses can experience.
The mysteries of faith are degraded if they are made into an object of affirmation and negation, when in reality they should be an object of contemplation. Simone Weil
This is where the secular church has gone wrong. It doesn't teach the value of conscious contemplation and opening to noesis. Instead people argue over superficial blind belief and blind denial
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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Nick_A wrote: April 10th, 2021, 4:15 pm T S
Why wouldn't noesis simply be a factor of how your individual brain happens to work (at a level of logical abstraction)?
In a sense it is. First of all Opinion is defined as receiving new impressions and creating new facts. It is the work of our computer mind. Noesis in contrast is defined as remembering the Eternal and immutable natures of reality or the forms.

Dianoia is the experience and interpretation of our senses while noesis is the experience or remembering of our essence of what has always existed.
From our brain's perspective, there is no difference between fact and opinion. They are both conclusions. Opinions are conclusions on subjective topics and facts are conclusions or measurements on objective subjects. Thus the differences lie in the topic not the thought process.
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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Nick_A wrote: April 10th, 2021, 7:57 pm That is the purpose of philosophy.
Not on my view. But okay, in some persons' views. But that some people see that as the purpose wouldn't support that there is anything immutable or eternal or that there are forms or essences.
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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LuckyR wrote: April 11th, 2021, 1:47 am
Nick_A wrote: April 10th, 2021, 4:15 pm T S
Why wouldn't noesis simply be a factor of how your individual brain happens to work (at a level of logical abstraction)?
In a sense it is. First of all Opinion is defined as receiving new impressions and creating new facts. It is the work of our computer mind. Noesis in contrast is defined as remembering the Eternal and immutable natures of reality or the forms.

Dianoia is the experience and interpretation of our senses while noesis is the experience or remembering of our essence of what has always existed.
From our brain's perspective, there is no difference between fact and opinion. They are both conclusions. Opinions are conclusions on subjective topics and facts are conclusions or measurements on objective subjects. Thus the differences lie in the topic not the thought process.
There's a sense of "opinion" where we're referring to "Joe's view on whether Venus ever had liquid water," but re the other sense of "opinion," the difference on my view is whether I'm reporting how something happens to be, what happens to be the case, versus whether I'm reporting how I feel about something--whether I like or dislike it, etc.
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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Plato wrote: Opinion is the medium between knowledge and ignorance.
Nick_A wrote: April 9th, 2021, 4:58 pm Modern philosophy is the endless debate between opinions. But can a person experience knowledge by transcending our reliance on opinions?
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 10th, 2021, 8:57 am No. The confidence we place in our knowledge is a spectrum, with opinion sitting somewhere in the middle. We can only "transcend our reliance on opinion" by acquiring knowledge in which we have greater confidence. It isn't an internal thing, a way in which humanity can evolve and progress. It simply involves learning more.
Nick_A wrote: April 10th, 2021, 12:44 pm Do you recognize a difference between knowing and understanding?
I think, if I scrunch up all my neurones, I can manage that, yes.

Nick_A wrote: April 10th, 2021, 12:44 pm A perfect circle is good example of what Plato called a form. Our senses are only capable of experiencing the virtual infinity of circles but can only intellectually admit as an idea the existence of a perfect circle from which all the particular expressions of circles devolve.
I think we develop in our minds generalised and typical models, not "perfect" ones. The model I have in my mind of a circle is sufficiently general that I can use it to recognise almost any circular, or near-circular, shape. My mental image of "dog" is the same. It is not perfect, it just allows me to recognise dogs.

Nick_A wrote: April 10th, 2021, 12:44 pm Science is attracted to particulars or fragments of the whole while philosophy as the love of wisdom is attracted to wholeness or the forms.
Science and philosophy have many commonalities, and quite a few differences, but I don't recognise the distinction you are making here as being in any way significant or helpful. Science is tactics, while philosophy is strategy? I don't think that captures a worthwile distinction.

Nick_A wrote: April 10th, 2021, 12:44 pm Can these two directions leading to truth become united as one; facts and objective values? Not yet IMO. Too much arguing to do first.
First, how do you know both lead to "truth"? Second, are the two of them distinct, or associated fields with much in common? Thirdly, now you have introduced the "O" word - "objective" - you have muddied the waters. Exactly what do you mean by it? Serious question. The O-word is often used to introduce deliberate confusion, implying a milder meaning, then later assuming a more rigorous one. And so on.

Oh, and let's remember that science grew out of philosophy. The two were originally one, but have diverged a little in more recent times. Perhaps they have always been "united", and remain so? It seems so to me.
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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LuckyR wrote: April 11th, 2021, 1:47 am From our brain's perspective, there is no difference between fact and opinion. They are both conclusions. Opinions are conclusions on subjective topics and facts are conclusions or measurements on objective subjects. Thus the differences lie in the topic not the thought process.

I feel I must question this, in a small way. Empirical observation - of myself and others - leads me to believe we have opinions about all manner of things. We do not limit our opinions to "subjective topics". While "facts", strictly speaking, are probably limited to so-called "objective" subjects, as you observe.

IMO, "the differences" definitely do not "lie in the topic not the thought process". Surely these "differences" simply reflect the difference in our confidence in our conclusions? Opinions are considered less authoritative than "facts".
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Re: Ignorance, Opinions, and Knowledge

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LuckyR
From our brain's perspective, there is no difference between fact and opinion. They are both conclusions. Opinions are conclusions on subjective topics and facts are conclusions or measurements on objective subjects. Thus the differences lie in the topic not the thought process.
That may be true for science but the goal of traditional philosophy is the experience of truth. Noesis is a direct experience of what always was rather than a dualistic intellectual conclusion of a current phenomenon
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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