Equality

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Alias
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Re: Equality

Post by Alias »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 9:38 am [There are more of every kind of humans ... What are the percentages?]
That is a totally hollow argument!!
There are more people its obvious we want more slaves!!
That wasn't an argument; it was a request for one. You say: there are more slaves now. I say: show me the ratio.
It's not a question of wanting but of counting. There are also more rich people than ever before. There are more civil servants than ever before. There are more elementary school teachers than ever before. And there are more freelancers than ever before.
[Show me the comparative lifestyles and classes of modern France and 12th century France.]
Why be so particular?
Choose your own relevant example. It doesn't have to be France; it just has to be an accurate comparison.
There are people living in France who have nothing, and there are people in France that have more than they had in 12thC.
What is the proportion of each to the population and what is the ratio of wealth distribution?
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 16th, 2021, 10:58 am Grace? As in God, and "God's grace"? Or do you refer to something else?
The grace of God is a particular quality of energy which permeates our universe
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Sculptor1
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Re: Equality

Post by Sculptor1 »

Alias wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:31 pm
That wasn't an argument; it was a request for one. You say: there are more slaves now. I say: show me the ratio.
The ratio is not relevant.
THe number of slaves necessary, needed or acceptible is ZERO.
Alias
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Re: Equality

Post by Alias »

I seem to have messed up the previous reply, so will try again - good advice, that!
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 9:38 am [more people]
That is a totally hollow argument!!
It wasn't an argument.

[ S - The economic remoteness between the rich and poor is bigger than ever. ]
[A - Show me the comparative lifestyles and classes of modern France and 12th century France. ]
Why be so particular?[any example that demonstrates a mathematical fact needs to be particular.]
[S - The mechanisms by which people with money are able to earn more money by doing NO WORK, are more and varied, but are the reserve of the few who are also able to avoid taxation and have been continually benefiting from tax breaks, loop holes and tax cuts for generations.]
[A - That, too, has been true since the dawn of civilization]
You simply cannot read. Try again.
Okay. Though it's quite possible for literate people to disagree on particulars.
We may have a discrepancy of definitions here. I count civilization from settled agriculture: the society has established itself in permanent dwellings on land which they defend against other tribes and they have specialized work: farm labour, manufacturing, armed forces, construction, service (healing, teaching, cooking, cleaning) administration (and a separate priestly caste, unless they're also administration and/or service).
In the dawn of civilisation there was no such thing as money and no wat to store wealth except with grain. There was no way to make money from the fact of just having money.
They didn't need to make "money" in order to maintain economic disparity, disparity of power and freedom. By the time they could store [accumulate; own] grain, the granaries and even the productive lands were owned by one class, who then ruled and collected wealth from all the other classes and oppressed the lowest, most productive class, which is traditionally the landless peasant.
They also had many other trade goods besides grain, both resource : salt, teakwood, copper, jade, girls, cinnamon, hemp, etc. and manufactured: baskets, rugs, spears, fishing nets... Merchants traded with all kinds of societies in all kinds of media of exchange - which could all be accumulated. If a merchant grew rich enough, he would franchise out the acquisition, travel and delivery of goods, sit back and collect his percentage (Much like today). If he also owned the camels and boats of small merchants - who were always one bad transaction away from repossession (much like today), he could easily end up owning their ox and ass.
Te number of slaves necessary, needed or acceptible is ZERO.
That is exactly what has changed! We no longer accept slavery, because we consider ourselves equal.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Equality

Post by Sculptor1 »

Alias wrote: April 16th, 2021, 1:03 pm I seem to have messed up the previous reply, so will try again - good advice, that!
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 9:38 am [more people]
That is a totally hollow argument!!
It wasn't an argument.

[ S - The economic remoteness between the rich and poor is bigger than ever. ]
[A - Show me the comparative lifestyles and classes of modern France and 12th century France. ]
Why be so particular?[any example that demonstrates a mathematical fact needs to be particular.]
[S - The mechanisms by which people with money are able to earn more money by doing NO WORK, are more and varied, but are the reserve of the few who are also able to avoid taxation and have been continually benefiting from tax breaks, loop holes and tax cuts for generations.]
[A - That, too, has been true since the dawn of civilization]
You simply cannot read. Try again.
Okay. Though it's quite possible for literate people to disagree on particulars.
We may have a discrepancy of definitions here. I count civilization from settled agriculture: the society has established itself in permanent dwellings on land which they defend against other tribes and they have specialized work: farm labour, manufacturing, armed forces, construction, service (healing, teaching, cooking, cleaning) administration (and a separate priestly caste, unless they're also administration and/or service).
In the dawn of civilisation there was no such thing as money and no wat to store wealth except with grain. There was no way to make money from the fact of just having money.
They didn't need to make "money" in order to maintain economic disparity, disparity of power and freedom. By the time they could store [accumulate; own] grain, the granaries and even the productive lands were owned by one class, who then ruled and collected wealth from all the other classes and oppressed the lowest, most productive class, which is traditionally the landless peasant.
They also had many other trade goods besides grain, both resource : salt, teakwood, copper, jade, girls, cinnamon, hemp, etc. and manufactured: baskets, rugs, spears, fishing nets... Merchants traded with all kinds of societies in all kinds of media of exchange - which could all be accumulated. If a merchant grew rich enough, he would franchise out the acquisition, travel and delivery of goods, sit back and collect his percentage (Much like today). If he also owned the camels and boats of small merchants - who were always one bad transaction away from repossession (much like today), he could easily end up owning their ox and ass.
Te number of slaves necessary, needed or acceptible is ZERO.
That is exactly what has changed! We no longer accept slavery, because we consider ourselves equal.
False. Slavery is common and accepted
Nick_A
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Re: Equality

Post by Nick_A »

So the secularists here believe the only hope for equality comes through obedience to the dictates of a strong central government that somehow does not end up as tyranny and slavery. Heh, heh, heh, foolish child.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Alias
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Re: Equality

Post by Alias »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:40 pm THe number of slaves necessary, needed or acceptible is ZERO.
False. Slavery is common and accepted
Which?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Sculptor1
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Re: Equality

Post by Sculptor1 »

Alias wrote: April 16th, 2021, 6:57 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:40 pm THe number of slaves necessary, needed or acceptible is ZERO.
False. Slavery is common and accepted
Which?
Do you know what subjective means?
Alias
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Re: Equality

Post by Alias »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:25 am
Alias wrote: April 16th, 2021, 6:57 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:40 pm THe number of slaves necessary, needed or acceptible is ZERO.
False. Slavery is common and accepted
Which?
Do you know what subjective means?
Yes. Do you know what non sequitur means?
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit atrocities. - Voltaire
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Sculptor1
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Re: Equality

Post by Sculptor1 »

Alias wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:51 am
Sculptor1 wrote: April 17th, 2021, 7:25 am
Alias wrote: April 16th, 2021, 6:57 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: April 16th, 2021, 12:40 pm THe number of slaves necessary, needed or acceptible is ZERO.
False. Slavery is common and accepted
Which?
Do you know what subjective means?
Yes. Do you know what non sequitur means?
LOL
That was my next question to you.
What part of this no brainer would you like me to explain first?
Alias
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Re: Equality

Post by Alias »

Thanks, but I think I understand your position adequately for my current needs.
popeye1945
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Re: Equality

Post by popeye1945 »

I think equality happens by accident sometimes, otherwise, it's nonsense. Happenstance is a good word.
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mystery
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Re: Equality

Post by mystery »

Sculptor1 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 2:13 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 1:30 pm
Nick_A wrote: April 15th, 2021, 12:38 pm
“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville
It seems America is losing its initial goal of equality in individual liberty and now is moving towards the celebration of collective slavery and equality in nothing. Why?
Actually from the whole 250 year perspective, while the US is losing it's reputation for equality, it's actual equality has improved over time, though recently the financial equality has taken a hit, while civil liberties continue their slow improvement.
Inequality is at an all time high.
Objective data that is in support of your comment. And it is getting worse.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/219 ... ouseholds/
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mystery
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Re: Equality

Post by mystery »

silly premise. No one wants equality. We all tell that in hopes to get something. Almost every person that complains about this has in view some person or group that is more successful than they are in some way. They wish to enjoy whatever item or benefit that the other person or group has. The funny thing is that the same person can look at the world and easily find a person or group that has FAR less than they do. If equality is so important why do they not immediately divide what they have and share it to the one that has far less? It is a real question for self-analysis. Hypocrisy comes in many forms, most humans are greedy.

everyone wants superiority... The need to be great.

No two people are equal, but we can apply to interact with them and apply equal stimuli. The thing is that each person will react slightly differently to the same situation. In golf, we have something called a handicap to address that. However, nothing is fair about taking from the hard work of one and giving to the other so that they both can enjoy the same benefits.

The difference between rights and privileges creates a distorted view of equality, however, remember no one wants that, they want superiority.
popeye1945
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Re: Equality

Post by popeye1945 »

Criteria really **** up a general consensus as to who is more than another, context and its circumstances define.
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