The Source of Consciousness

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Nick_A
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The Source of Consciousness

Post by Nick_A »

"My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists." —Nikola Tesla
Most discussions concerning the nature of consciousness avoid the essential question as to the source of consciousness. Does Man create consciousness or is Man a receiver of consciousness? If Man is the source of consciousness, he creates his own reality with the potential through unlimited knowledge, to experience reality. If Man is receiver of consciousness, he has the potential to remember what already exists but has been forgotten as Plato describes.

I take the minority position that Man can remember the way back to the source rather than being the source. My gut feeling is that it is a minority position since it suggests a Source people define as a personal God and all the emotional objections associated with it. Yet avoiding it makes it impossible to discover the objective meaning and purpose of existence and organic life including Man within it.

Are there any members here who also begin with the idea that Man is a receiver of consciousness who could make discussion possible? Apparently this question is still debated but why debate when the option is open to discuss the implications of being a potential receiver of consciousness.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -the-brain
The prevailing consensus in neuroscience is that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and its metabolism. When the brain dies, the mind and consciousness of the being to whom that brain belonged ceases to exist. In other words, without a brain, there can be no consciousness.

But according to the decades-long research of Dr. Peter Fenwick, a highly regarded neuropsychiatrist who has been studying the human brain, consciousness, and the phenomenon of near-death experience (NDE) for 50 years, this view is incorrect. Despite initially being highly incredulous of NDEs and related phenomena, Fenwick now believes his extensive research suggests that consciousness persists after death. In fact, Fenwick believes that consciousness actually exists independently and outside of the brain as an inherent property of the universe itself like dark matter and dark energy or gravity.

Hence, in Fenwick’s view, the brain does not create or produce consciousness; rather, it filters it. As odd as this idea might seem at first, there are some analogies that bring the concept into sharper focus. For example, the eye filters and interprets only a very small sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum, and the ear registers only a narrow range of sonic frequencies. Similarly, according to Fenwick, the brain filters and perceives only a tiny part of the cosmos’ intrinsic “consciousness.”...................
If relative qualities of consciousness beginning with the eternal unchanging conscious source beyond the limits of time and space is the structure of our universe making it the "body of God" within the Source, is it possible that a person can consciously experience the objective purposes of their life processes within the body of God? Of course if Man is the source of consciousness, then he has no objective purpose and there is nothing but the battle over subjective interpretations.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Count Lucanor
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

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Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am Most discussions concerning the nature of consciousness avoid the essential question as to the source of consciousness. Does Man create consciousness or is Man a receiver of consciousness?
That is no different than asking if man creates metabolism or is man a receiver of metabolism. It doesn't make much sense. Consciousness does not seem to be a substance, something that would be created or transmitted. It's a name for a set of neurological processes. There's no need for a source.
But according to the decades-long research of Dr. Peter Fenwick, a highly regarded neuropsychiatrist who has been studying the human brain, consciousness, and the phenomenon of near-death experience (NDE) for 50 years, this view is incorrect. Despite initially being highly incredulous of NDEs and related phenomena, Fenwick now believes his extensive research suggests that consciousness persists after death. In fact, Fenwick believes that consciousness actually exists independently and outside of the brain as an inherent property of the universe itself like dark matter and dark energy or gravity.
Dr. Fenwick will have to settle for being a tiny minority of doctors that promote nonsense. No substantial, hard evidence, has ever been produced to support stories of NDE. They are all purely based on oral testimonies.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
― Marcus Tullius Cicero
Gee
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

Post by Gee »

Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am
"My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists." —Nikola Tesla
Most discussions concerning the nature of consciousness avoid the essential question as to the source of consciousness. Does Man create consciousness or is Man a receiver of consciousness? If Man is the source of consciousness, he creates his own reality with the potential through unlimited knowledge, to experience reality. If Man is receiver of consciousness, he has the potential to remember what already exists but has been forgotten as Plato describes.
Most discussions concerning the nature of consciousness also avoid the essential question as to the properties of consciousness. In order to find the source, one must first know what one is looking for or what consciousness is -- is it thought? is it emotion? is it a force? is it "God"? is it the Universe? is it a pure singular thing? does it evolve? is it relative only to man, or is it relative to all life?
Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am I take the minority position that Man can remember the way back to the source rather than being the source. My gut feeling is that it is a minority position since it suggests a Source people define as a personal God and all the emotional objections associated with it. Yet avoiding it makes it impossible to discover the objective meaning and purpose of existence and organic life including Man within it.
I am not going to dispute this, but wonder if the "personal God" evolved and if emotion evolved. Is the personal "God" that we know now the same personal "God" that was known and accepted 10,000 years ago? 100,000 years ago?
Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am Are there any members here who also begin with the idea that Man is a receiver of consciousness who could make discussion possible? Apparently this question is still debated but why debate when the option is open to discuss the implications of being a potential receiver of consciousness.
It is my thought that we are the receivers and the creators.
Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -the-brain
The prevailing consensus in neuroscience is that consciousness is an emergent property of the brain and its metabolism. When the brain dies, the mind and consciousness of the being to whom that brain belonged ceases to exist. In other words, without a brain, there can be no consciousness.
Neuroscience can get pretty dumb on occasion -- it tends to be rather self-absorbed and thinks that consciousness is thought which requires a brain to exist. They are talking about the rational aspect of mind -- not consciousness. The truth is that the body can be alive and aware for hours after the brain has died.
Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am But according to the decades-long research of Dr. Peter Fenwick, a highly regarded neuropsychiatrist who has been studying the human brain, consciousness, and the phenomenon of near-death experience (NDE) for 50 years, this view is incorrect. Despite initially being highly incredulous of NDEs and related phenomena, Fenwick now believes his extensive research suggests that consciousness persists after death. In fact, Fenwick believes that consciousness actually exists independently and outside of the brain as an inherent property of the universe itself like dark matter and dark energy or gravity.
Here when he talks about death he is talking about brain death. One of the questions that has to be addressed in order to understand NDE's is when does the body die? I agree that consciousness exists outside of the body/brain, but can not be sure that it is independent of the body/brain.
Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am Hence, in Fenwick’s view, the brain does not create or produce consciousness; rather, it filters it. As odd as this idea might seem at first, there are some analogies that bring the concept into sharper focus. For example, the eye filters and interprets only a very small sliver of the electromagnetic spectrum, and the ear registers only a narrow range of sonic frequencies. Similarly, according to Fenwick, the brain filters and perceives only a tiny part of the cosmos’ intrinsic “consciousness.”...................
I would say that it filters it and reflects it. The reflection is what causes the rational aspect of mind or our self-directed thoughts. Life that does not have a brain is still aware/conscious and alive, it can die, it just can't think -- like plants.
Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am If relative qualities of consciousness beginning with the eternal unchanging conscious source beyond the limits of time and space is the structure of our universe making it the "body of God" within the Source, is it possible that a person can consciously experience the objective purposes of their life processes within the body of God? Of course if Man is the source of consciousness, then he has no objective purpose and there is nothing but the battle over subjective interpretations.
I don't know the answer to this as not enough it known about the "Source". But it is an interesting question.

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Re: The Source of Consciousness

Post by Gee »

Count Lucanor wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:28 pm
Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am Most discussions concerning the nature of consciousness avoid the essential question as to the source of consciousness. Does Man create consciousness or is Man a receiver of consciousness?
That is no different than asking if man creates metabolism or is man a receiver of metabolism. It doesn't make much sense. Consciousness does not seem to be a substance, something that would be created or transmitted. It's a name for a set of neurological processes. There's no need for a source.
I don't think you have a clue as to what you are talking about. You might want to consider doing some research which may help things make more "sense" for you, before posting such disinformation.

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Re: The Source of Consciousness

Post by QuestionAll+Nothing »

The way I see consciousness is more related to the chemical reaction to blood being stimulated in the body and mind. I think your looking for the concept of psychological comprehension when being conscious. All species are conscious knowing that they react and are aware of there surroundings. I recently understand from a personal experience that the subconscious is ultimately what they consider the 4th dimension or 4th dimensional thinking which intern is related to the will of (god/light/nature)-(example your heart beating is eternally etched in the subconscious mind)- (the 4th dimension) this is why you can’t just use your own thought to stop your heart (it’s with the will of god/nature/light). Now the psychological mind set gives you the ability to determine and identify this outcome. I was able to break down and re-engineer my mind to understand this. I have more information but almost not worth it because it goes deep and I always get flag for rules and I think the host is using most or a lot of everyone’s philosophies for there own interest will see if this gets posted and if not I just keep the code to myself. So consciousnesses is received and not created by man.
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

Post by UniversalAlien »

From the Noble Prize winning founder of Quantum Mechanics:

“I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”
― Max Planck



Another words consciousness is a prime - Nothing can exist without it.

Just try to describe one thing, any thing, that exists without using consciousness to describe it?

Every word, every formula, every math equation, requires consciousness to describe it.

And everything that exists must come out of consciousness.
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

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Gee wrote: April 19th, 2021, 10:23 pm
Count Lucanor wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:28 pm
Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am Most discussions concerning the nature of consciousness avoid the essential question as to the source of consciousness. Does Man create consciousness or is Man a receiver of consciousness?
That is no different than asking if man creates metabolism or is man a receiver of metabolism. It doesn't make much sense. Consciousness does not seem to be a substance, something that would be created or transmitted. It's a name for a set of neurological processes. There's no need for a source.
I don't think you have a clue as to what you are talking about. You might want to consider doing some research which may help things make more "sense" for you, before posting such disinformation.

Gee
You can have opinions for sure, even though they lack any support on logical arguments or evidence. As far as I'm concerned, my statement above reflects the ordinary consensus in scientific disciplines.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

Post by Nick_A »

We have enough here to discuss the implications for Man being a receiver of consciiusness.

First of all does anyone have objections to Plotinus explanation of the ONE being the source of consciousness for this hypothesis? If it is, then the cyclical process of existence takes place within the eternal unchanging of the ONE.

https://iep.utm.edu/plotinus/
a. The One

The ‘concept’ of the One is not, properly speaking, a concept at all, since it is never explicitly defined by Plotinus, yet it is nevertheless the foundation and grandest expression of his philosophy. Plotinus does make it clear that no words can do justice to the power of the One; even the name, ‘the One,’ is inadequate, for naming already implies discursive knowledge, and since discursive knowledge divides or separates its objects in order to make them intelligible, the One cannot be known through the process of discursive reasoning (Ennead VI.9.4). Knowledge of the One is achieved through the experience of its ‘power’ (dunamis) and its nature, which is to provide a ‘foundation’ (arkhe) and location (topos) for all existents (VI.9.6). The ‘power’ of the One is not a power in the sense of physical or even mental action; the power of the One, as Plotinus speaks of it, is to be understood as the only adequate description of the ‘manifestation’ of a supreme principle that, by its very nature, transcends all predication and discursive understanding. This ‘power,’ then, is capable of being experienced, or known, only through contemplation (theoria), or the purely intellectual ‘vision’ of the source of all things. The One transcends all beings, and is not itself a being, precisely because all beings owe their existence and subsistence to their eternal contemplation of the dynamic manifestation(s) of the One. The One can be said to be the ‘source’ of all existents only insofar as every existent naturally and (therefore) imperfectly contemplates the various aspects of the One, as they are extended throughout the cosmos, in the form of either sensible or intelligible objects or existents. The perfect contemplation of the One, however, must not be understood as a return to a primal source; for the One is not, strictly speaking, a source or a cause, but rather the eternally present possibility — or active making-possible — of all existence, of Being (V.2.1). According to Plotinus, the unmediated vision of the ‘generative power’ of the One, to which existents are led by the Intelligence (V.9.2), results in an ecstatic dance of inspiration, not in a satiated torpor; for it is the nature of the One to impart fecundity to existents — that is to say: the One, in its regal, indifferent capacity as undiminishable potentiality of Being, permits both rapt contemplation and ecstatic, creative extension. These twin poles, this ‘stanchion,’ is the manifested framework of existence which the One produces, effortlessly (V.1.6). The One, itself, is best understood as the center about which the ‘stanchion,’ the framework of the cosmos, is erected. This ‘stanchion’ or framework is the result of the contemplative activity of the Intelligence.
The ONE is pure consciousness and the source of what we experience as the contents of consciousness through dunamis

The One, itself, is best understood as the center about which the ‘stanchion,’ the framework of the cosmos, is erected. This ‘stanchion’ or framework is the result of the contemplative activity of the Intelligence.

If the framework of the cosmos is a necessity rather then a haphazard creation, can we begin to understand our potential purpose within this cosmological structure
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

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Nick_A wrote: April 19th, 2021, 9:46 am
"My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists." —Nikola Tesla
Most discussions concerning the nature of consciousness avoid the essential question as to the source of consciousness. Does Man create consciousness or is Man a receiver of consciousness? If Man is the source of consciousness, he creates his own reality with the potential through unlimited knowledge, to experience reality. If Man is receiver of consciousness, he has the potential to remember what already exists but has been forgotten as Plato describes.
Gee wrote: April 19th, 2021, 10:16 pm Most discussions concerning the nature of consciousness also avoid the essential question as to the properties of consciousness. In order to find the source, one must first know what one is looking for or what consciousness is -- is it thought? is it emotion? is it a force? is it "God"? is it the Universe? is it a pure singular thing? does it evolve? is it relative only to man, or is it relative to all life?

This is also my reaction to the topics that abound here, trying to discuss this subject. Normally, I am the one who objects when someone tries to derail a topic by asking for detailed and precise definitions of all terms used. We can discuss things based on less than this. ... But I think it is also reasonable to ask what it is that we are discussing, for the sake of clarity, and to allow correspondents to participate meaningfully in the discussion. We don't necessarily NEED a precise and detailed description - helpful though that would be! - but we do need a shared impression of the subject under discussion.

So, Nick_A, in the context of this topic, what is the "consciousness" that we are discussing, please?
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

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Pattern-chaser wrote: April 21st, 2021, 10:48 am Normally, I am the one who objects when someone tries to derail a topic by asking for detailed and precise definitions of all terms used.
P.S. Gee, please note, the above is NOT aimed at you; I agree with your comments, and your request for clarification.
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

Post by Atla »

Man create consciousness
nope
Man a receiver of consciousness
nope
a name for a set of neurological processes
nope

:lol:
True philosophy points to the Moon
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

Post by Nick_A »

Pattern-Chaser wrote in support of Gee's question:

Gee wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:16 pm
Most discussions concerning the nature of consciousness also avoid the essential question as to the properties of consciousness. In order to find the source, one must first know what one is looking for or what consciousness is -- is it thought? is it emotion? is it a force? is it "God"? is it the Universe? is it a pure singular thing? does it evolve? is it relative only to man, or is it relative to all life?

This is also my reaction to the topics that abound here, trying to discuss this subject. Normally, I am the one who objects when someone tries to derail a topic by asking for detailed and precise definitions of all terms used. We can discuss things based on less than this. ... But I think it is also reasonable to ask what it is that we are discussing, for the sake of clarity, and to allow correspondents to participate meaningfully in the discussion. We don't necessarily NEED a precise and detailed description - helpful though that would be! - but we do need a shared impression of the subject under discussion.

What is the consciousness we are discussing?
I didn't want to get lost in the weeds before examining two different sources but this is how I understand consciousness.

the dialog Sophist, written in 360 BC, Plato wrote:
“My notion would be, that anything which possesses any sort of power to affect another, or to be affected by another, if only for a single moment, however trifling the cause and however slight the effect, has real existence; and I hold that the definition of being is simply power.”
The ONE IS as the eternal unchanging while EXISTENCE or the qualities of being within the ONE, serving the process of eternal change through the power TO BE. The power to be is a lesser form of consciousness than the isness of the ONE which is beyond being or the process of existence.

The philosopher is concerned with the basic questions like "who am I" and "why do I exist" I am suggesting that developing our [potential for philosophical understanding beginning with the Source comes from developing our ability for deductive reason more than the use of inductive reason or the way of science which also suggests that Man is the source of consciousness
Man has two ways of studying the universe. The first is by induction: he examines phenomena, classifies them, and attempts to infer laws and principles from them. This is the method generally used by science. The second is by deduction: having perceived or had revealed or discovered certain general laws and principles, he attempts to deduce the application of these laws in various studies and in life. This is the method generally used by religions.. The first method begins with 'facts' and attempts to reach 'laws'. The second method begins with 'laws' and attempts to reach 'facts'.
I am curious why certain people like Einstein and Simone Weil are very open to receive from higher consciousness or higher qualities of being while others reject higher qualities of being insisting Man as the source of being or consciousness.

That is what the thread is about; how to respect and use deductive reason as we try to answer the basic philosophical questions which satisfy the needs of the heart without insulting the scientific mind.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

Post by -0+ »

UniversalAlien wrote: April 20th, 2021, 7:02 am Just try to describe one thing, any thing, that exists without using consciousness to describe it?
If a robot describes something, does this mean it is conscious?

What about sleep talking humans?
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

Post by Nick_A »

-0+ wrote: April 21st, 2021, 5:46 pm
UniversalAlien wrote: April 20th, 2021, 7:02 am Just try to describe one thing, any thing, that exists without using consciousness to describe it?
If a robot describes something, does this mean it is conscious?

What about sleep talking humans?
OK, so you believe Man is the creator of consciousness. I was hoping to find those who believe Man is a receiver of consciousness which always was.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: The Source of Consciousness

Post by Terrapin Station »

People believing wacky ****--that we're "receivers" of consciousness, that consciousness persists after death, etc.--gets tiresome.
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