Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 1st, 2021, 6:08 am
(A) a way to definitively establish that there are no biologically-sourced changes or events in S's brain for a time period from Tx to Ty,
(B) S reporting specific/detailed and confirmable events, E, that occurred during the same time period Tx to Ty--where this can't rely on any sort of interpretation of vague things S says, and where
(C) we can unquestioningly establish that S has not been fed or subtly suggested or in any other way had post-Ty access to the detailed/specific information about E.
So it would require a carefully controlled experimental setting where the above criteria are clearly met.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑May 1st, 2021, 6:08 am
Gee stated:
I think we are talking about killing a person under carefully controlled experimental settings so that we can prove that we are right. Anyone who thinks that my responses are invalid and unreasonable, but have accepted the idea of an experiment has lost their little minds.
It would be possible to set up the more controlled conditions in a medical setting where, should a supposed NDE occur, we can confirm that there wasn't a much more mundane explanation for it. The criteria I outlined are what is necessary for a more mundane explanation to be ruled out.
I am sure that you believe this, but I do not for some very specific reasons. First, we do not really know enough about consciousness, nor do we know enough about death, so the parameters of the "test" would be set by our guesses, biases, and misconceptions. Would this make a difference? Absolutely, as every strength has a weakness and the worst weakness of the scientific method is the possibility of confirmation bias. Scientists are aware of this problem, but creating a test for something where you don't even understand the subject matter is bound to simply reinforce biases and beliefs.
Consider the following: Years ago I read a report about testing people, who claimed to be able to read auras. As you suggested, the people doing the research also used different means to prevent "mundane" explanations, one of which was a glass shield between the aura readers and the people they were trying to read. This all looked reasonable to me, and I was not surprised when the "readers" all failed the test. All the "readers" had claimed some ability to read auras, but failed completely. What did surprise me was that the "readers" anticipated failure. I did not understand that.
Years later, I met a woman, who can read auras, and I believed her, as she was very convincing. One of the things that she tried to explain was the misconception that reading auras was like seeing little colored lights around people. She said it doesn't work that way -- people are not lit up like little bulbs. To help me understand this idea, she said that reading auras is much like reading words. If you look at a page of text, you will not get much information until you focus on specific words, then the meaning of the word will blossom in your mind. She said that reading auras is much like that.
So when she was in a crowd, like in a shopping mall, or at a carnival, etc., she found the effects of her "talent" disturbing. As she moved through the crowd and focused on different individuals, she would see auras blinking in and out of existence, which she found a little disorienting. Her solution? She learned to keep sunglasses in her purse because one can not see auras through glass, clear plastic, or water.
So looking back at that testing report that I read years ago, it is no wonder that the "readers" anticipated failure. The question is did the testers intentionally nullify the test? It sure looks like it.
I do not think you would intentionally create an invalid test. But I do think you would take your beliefs about consciousness and create a test that supports them. I also think that you would assume that you know when death occurs as you believe that it is an event. It is not. Death, like birth, is a process that is much longer than most people realize. We give times of birth and death for practical reasons, but medical science is quite aware of the fact that the times are not an accurate representation. I also think that you would "test" the NDE by asking for information that could only be had by the rational aspect of mind, rather than the unconscious aspect, which would not be a valid test.
Gee