Marriage As A Spiritual Co-Evolutionary Process

[popeye1945]

Marriage I think most people have a least a vague idea that it is supposed to be a spiritual journey, but the ship often sinks. Most marriages are consummated in a condition of infatuation. The prince/princess is just about perfect but this is a co-evolutionary journey, and down the road chances are you think you didn't get what you signed on for. You signed on for perfect after all, or just about perfect. Today I think at least half the marriages fail, a cause for considerable despire and a lot of painful baggage. Philosophically it can be seen as a spiritual journey, in a world where one is surrounded by objects, and other people if you have no connection with them are objects in your ordinary life. Marriage as an opportunity is a relationship with the world of objects like no other, a plusing vital feeling sensitive object a true wonder, and it/ object to start with/ thinks your the best thing that's ever happened to them, this is called an opportunity of a life time. You know they gott'a be a little crazy!!

As a co-evolutionary journey however this thread is directed at males mainly because we are responsible for **** things up most of the time. Let's face it guys, we are an insensitive lot. Yes there are exceptions and kudos to them but most of us were not prepared to be decent mates for this co-evolutionary journey. If one wants a meaningful intelligent longterm co-evolutionary relationship we are going to have to overcome what perhaps feels somewhat against the grain, it not unmanly it is intelligent and emotionally intelligent, and if we want healthy families we should encourage more development of emotional intelligence for our male children, there would a tremendous return on the investment. Your thoughts?

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[LuckyR]

Well, I will say that IMO the number of folks who are "marriage material" is far smaller than the number who actually get married. Even within the life of one individual, they will pass from a time when they are too self centered to appreciate the partnership aspect of marriage, but later the same individual could be a great partner.

If you apply the same criteria to people who are good parents vs the number who are parents, you get the same, namely that a lot of parents are not suited to parenthood.

[popeye1945]

luckyR,
I quite agree, we do gain a little more wisdom as the years go on. I think however it is important enough to the well-being of society that there should be an early orientation devoted to interpersonal skills involved in parenting and that of relating to intimate relationship. Socializing is something that should not be left to happenstance/chance and we will never know what society would look like until it is at least attempted.

[mystery]

I would differ slightly in my current understanding of marriage, I believe it is a formalization of a romantic relationship. Spiritual can be added into the same resulting in even greater satisfaction, at the same time the core is of romantic nature. Women and men both can benefit by learning how and why the romantic parts work. Most simply learn as they go or trial by fire approach. Trial by fire results in many being burned.

Agree with enthusiasm that male children should be instructed in the proper understanding and management of emotional topics. Specifically in the differences between the genders. It does not come naturally to most. Understanding of the core drivers within the male and female is needed so that they may have some chance of success.

But what and how to teach them, and who shall it be that does it. Perhaps it is the responsibility of the fathers, to prepare the sons. If this could work it would require that the father shall have the knowledge. If the father does not know, then who shall do it but only the streets.

This is my first post to this forum, I am interested in this topic so started with it. I hope to also learn better styles for myself of presenting information and also understanding other viewpoints.

[LuckyR]

luckyR,
I quite agree, we do gain a little more wisdom as the years go on. I think however it is important enough to the well-being of society that there should be an early orientation devoted to interpersonal skills involved in parenting and that of relating to intimate relationship. Socializing is something that should not be left to happenstance/chance and we will never know what society would look like until it is at least attempted.

Please describe your view of how this orientation should take place.

[Nick_A]

Can anyone explain the difference between the secular and spiritual goals of marriage?

[popeye1945]

Well, traditional religious claims to a spiritual realm here is not spirituality at all. When one can find one's spirituality in life and the devotion to another human being that has a spiritual dimension. To me, spirituality has nothing to do with the supernatural. It's being and being in the world in an intelligent and meaningful way, coming as close as possible to, [an extremely difficult path through many obscurities] that rapture of being alive, something almost everyone misses, but even a limited success outweighs everything else.

[Nick_A]

Well, traditional religious claims to a spiritual realm here is not spirituality at all. When one can find one's spirituality in life and the devotion to another human being that has a spiritual dimension. To me, spirituality has nothing to do with the supernatural. It's being and being in the world in an intelligent and meaningful way, coming as close as possible to, [an extremely difficult path through many obscurities] that rapture of being alive, something almost everyone misses, but even a limited success outweighs everything else.

Do you mean that there is no difference between the goals of a secular and spiritual marriage?

[popeye1945]

No, I believe that a secular marriage has a better chance of being a spiritual experience than one based upon the supernatural. At present of course that would be extremely rare considering the almost certainty that worship of the supernatural will prevail. I believe as Nietzsche did that Christianity was really the first Nihilistic philosophy/ideology, devaluing this life for that of an imaginary one.

[popeye1945]

Please describe your view of how this orientation should take place.
[/quote]

Hi LuckyR,
Well, it involves my topic posting on the various types of poverty and how these different types of poverty affect the individual. The wretched state of the public school system however makes this seem a utopian enterprize, but it needn't be. It would however involve a restructuring of society to some extent, the school system would be at the top of the list. This could only be accomplished if the public could be convinced to support an educational system that would be greatly more expensive in the short term, for a generation or two. The old you get what you pay for! The present system isn't even delivering on that. This is a fairly big topic though, perhaps we could continue it in my other thread on the various types of poverty?

[Nick_A]

No, I believe that a secular marriage has a better chance of being a spiritual experience than one based upon the supernatural. At present of course that would be extremely rare considering the almost certainty that worship of the supernatural will prevail. I believe as Nietzsche did that Christianity was really the first Nihilistic philosophy/ideology, devaluing this life for that of an imaginary one.

I still don't understand what you mean. What is this spiritual experience as opposed to an emotional one and what if anything actually evolves? Do you believe there is a difference or is it just meaningless words?

[popeye1945]

Hi Nick.
While to start off with, any two people in a long-term marriage are engaged in a co-evolutionary development. I am presently dealing with old friends who have been married for years and they tend to think and believe in unison. If you make one unhappy you must deal with the rath of the other. Any long-term couple is an example of this. A spiritual experience and an emotional one are one and the same, except with a spiritual one this emotion if indeed it is the same emotion is tweaked by a fantasy. What does spiritual mean to you? Do you not think the very basis of belief is emotional.

[Terrapin Station]

I'm not at all spiritual, so I've never seen marriage as a "spiritual journey" or anything like that.

I've been married a few times, but I don't see that as a problem really.

And my current marriage has lasted for 21 years so far.

[popeye1945]

Hi Mystery, and welcome!!
Yes, I quite agree it should be the parents preferably the father to educate in these matters but, the fact is it is not feasible. An old saying comes to mind, "One cannot give to one's children what one has not gained for one self", so this is a fail before it begins. Romantic love and infatuation tend to be one and the same thing, and the marriage consummated under those conditions. Ideally, passion turns largely to compassion for that other human being. but again this is often not the case. I agree they need a greater understanding of the other sex to increase the likelyhood of success, Both partners need to have a degree of emotional intelligence, and like you've said it doesn't come naturally, a little more so with the female but often the male entirely misses the boat. Just to clarify, my definition of spiritual is an emotional reciprocal relationship to be the foundation, not to be confused with a religious aspect.

[Nick_A]

Hi Nick.
While to start off with, any two people in a long-term marriage are engaged in a co-evolutionary development. I am presently dealing with old friends who have been married for years and they tend to think and believe in unison. If you make one unhappy you must deal with the rath of the other. Any long-term couple is an example of this. A spiritual experience and an emotional one are one and the same, except with a spiritual one this emotion if indeed it is the same emotion is tweaked by a fantasy. What does spiritual mean to you? Do you not think the very basis of belief is emotional.

Animal emotions rising from the earth effect the lower parts of the human essence while spiritual emotions devolve from above and effect the higher parts of the collective human essence.. Secular Man is concerned with what we and others DO while those following an authentic esoteric path are concerned what we and others ARE. Secular marriage is unconcerned with what we ARE. It is unaware of the complimentary energies of yin and yang (female nd male). For marriage to have any spiritual meaning it must blend these complimentary energies into one in the presence of higher consciousness which aids its evolution.

Secular marriage being only concerned with what we DO, can consist of more than two people. It doesn't matter if is two men or two women because all that is considered important is what we DO. An authentic spiritual marriage requiring the blend of yin and yang and what they ARE, requires a man and a woman and the blend of their complimentary energies to make their evolution possible.

There is nothing wrong with secular marriage. It can even make people happy. But spiritual marriage is something special and uniquely human