Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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popeye1945
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Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

Post by popeye1945 »

Group thought the pros and cons, it certainly has both going for it. I try at times to question myself when I find myself in agreement with the majority. I I ask myself if my agreement hasn't been influenced by the desire to belong, to be liked. I am not a religious person, but often envy friends with the comfort they find in group belief/thought and the community that goes with it. To some degree just belonging to society depends upon acceptance of the group thought of the majority whether that is done on an entirely conscious level or not. Certainly, if you are not in agreement with the majority and you still wish to live in peace and have a fulfilling life in this same said context, that might present some problems. Take in the states, there is open hatred expressed towards anyone known as an atheist, families are harassed, basically, run out town. The children are called devil worshipers in school, and it isn't just the children, the teachers have been known to take part in the harassment of such children. That's one negative but on the other hand, there are many benefits to and positive aspects to being in harmony with the majority. Your thoughts?
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Re: Group Thought, It's Pros And Cons

Post by Nick_A »

Hi Popeye

In "Sketch of Contemporary Social Life" (1934), Simone Weil develops the theme of collectivism as the trajectory of modern culture.

Never has the individual been so completely delivered up to a blind collectivity, and never have men been so less capable, not only of subordinating their actions to their thoughts, but even of thinking.

Weil is not defending the individual as laisse-faire atom but as subordinated to inimical modern forces by "production and consumption," with science, technology, labor, money, and social life turning historical means into corporate and collectivist ends.

The inversion of the relation between means and ends -- an inversion which is to a certain extent the law of every oppressive society -- here becomes total or nearly so, and extends to nearly everything.

The great danger of collectivism is its tendency to devolve reason into a means for justifying the secular pragmatic desires of the state as opposed to the normal human need for experiencing universal truths. When the means only exist to serve the ends defined by the collective, Society remains an atom of the Great Beast or sub human with the potential to become human or what human being is capable of without being indoctrinated by the collective
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Group Thought, It's Pros And Cons

Post by chewybrian »

Nick_A wrote: May 15th, 2021, 5:08 pm The great danger of collectivism is its tendency to devolve reason into a means for justifying the secular pragmatic desires of the state as opposed to the normal human need for experiencing universal truths. When the means only exist to serve the ends defined by the collective, Society remains an atom of the Great Beast or sub human with the potential to become human or what human being is capable of without being indoctrinated by the collective
It seems like we are there now (or maybe we have been for a long time). We seem to be living in a high school debate class. Most people use whatever means possible to support the decision they've already made (or had made for them), rather than searching for the real truth. They are not strong enough to admit that they might have been mistaken. They've been taught well how to defend crap positions, but not how to tell crap from truth.

A great society would be careful to teach children how to think for themselves, unafraid of the consequences. If our ideas are right, people who can think for themselves will confirm their worth. If the ideas are wrong, they can show us something better. Either way, we win and man advances.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Group Thought, It's Pros And Cons

Post by Nick_A »

chewybrian wrote: May 15th, 2021, 6:09 pm
Nick_A wrote: May 15th, 2021, 5:08 pm The great danger of collectivism is its tendency to devolve reason into a means for justifying the secular pragmatic desires of the state as opposed to the normal human need for experiencing universal truths. When the means only exist to serve the ends defined by the collective, Society remains an atom of the Great Beast or sub human with the potential to become human or what human being is capable of without being indoctrinated by the collective
It seems like we are there now (or maybe we have been for a long time). We seem to be living in a high school debate class. Most people use whatever means possible to support the decision they've already made (or had made for them), rather than searching for the real truth. They are not strong enough to admit that they might have been mistaken. They've been taught well how to defend crap positions, but not how to tell crap from truth.

A great society would be careful to teach children how to think for themselves, unafraid of the consequences. If our ideas are right, people who can think for themselves will confirm their worth. If the ideas are wrong, they can show us something better. Either way, we win and man advances.
But the young are not supposed to think for themselves but become indoctrinated beings like their parents. Even now the the young are gathering in mobs intent on destroying the hard work of others for the cause of an impossible concept called social justice. If the young could think for themselves it would jeopardize control by given agendas. That is what the Metaphysical Repression thread is about. When education, media, and secularized religion are all against becoming capable of thinking for themselves so as to "Know Thyself," who can the young turn to when they begin to sense that they live in an absurd situation? Not many choices so Man turns in circles rather than advancing.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Group Thought, It's Pros And Cons

Post by LuckyR »

chewybrian wrote: May 15th, 2021, 6:09 pm
Nick_A wrote: May 15th, 2021, 5:08 pm The great danger of collectivism is its tendency to devolve reason into a means for justifying the secular pragmatic desires of the state as opposed to the normal human need for experiencing universal truths. When the means only exist to serve the ends defined by the collective, Society remains an atom of the Great Beast or sub human with the potential to become human or what human being is capable of without being indoctrinated by the collective
It seems like we are there now (or maybe we have been for a long time). We seem to be living in a high school debate class. Most people use whatever means possible to support the decision they've already made (or had made for them), rather than searching for the real truth. They are not strong enough to admit that they might have been mistaken. They've been taught well how to defend crap positions, but not how to tell crap from truth.

A great society would be careful to teach children how to think for themselves, unafraid of the consequences. If our ideas are right, people who can think for themselves will confirm their worth. If the ideas are wrong, they can show us something better. Either way, we win and man advances.
What is new about now is that everyone has a computer in their pocket loaded with algorithms to feed you "information" to support whatever belief you type into it.

No incentive to find truth (although that same pocket computer will display the truth if the operator bypasses the algorithms and looks for it. Yet few do.)
"As usual... it depends."
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chewybrian
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Re: Group Thought, It's Pros And Cons

Post by chewybrian »

Nick_A wrote: May 15th, 2021, 11:56 pm
chewybrian wrote: May 15th, 2021, 6:09 pm
Nick_A wrote: May 15th, 2021, 5:08 pm The great danger of collectivism is its tendency to devolve reason into a means for justifying the secular pragmatic desires of the state as opposed to the normal human need for experiencing universal truths. When the means only exist to serve the ends defined by the collective, Society remains an atom of the Great Beast or sub human with the potential to become human or what human being is capable of without being indoctrinated by the collective
It seems like we are there now (or maybe we have been for a long time). We seem to be living in a high school debate class. Most people use whatever means possible to support the decision they've already made (or had made for them), rather than searching for the real truth. They are not strong enough to admit that they might have been mistaken. They've been taught well how to defend crap positions, but not how to tell crap from truth.

A great society would be careful to teach children how to think for themselves, unafraid of the consequences. If our ideas are right, people who can think for themselves will confirm their worth. If the ideas are wrong, they can show us something better. Either way, we win and man advances.
But the young are not supposed to think for themselves but become indoctrinated beings like their parents. Even now the the young are gathering in mobs intent on destroying the hard work of others for the cause of an impossible concept called social justice. If the young could think for themselves it would jeopardize control by given agendas. That is what the Metaphysical Repression thread is about. When education, media, and secularized religion are all against becoming capable of thinking for themselves so as to "Know Thyself," who can the young turn to when they begin to sense that they live in an absurd situation? Not many choices so Man turns in circles rather than advancing.
Image

The solution is to stop turning to "solutions" and to embrace reality. You have only the fact of your own experience; (at least most of) the rest is contrived b.s. When you turn to yourself for answers, with your eyes wide open, then you can see truth, even if the truth is that you have no answer. When you accept reality instead of trying to build it, you are relieved of the pointless, constant effort required to prop up the lie, and of the fear that the truth will catch up with you when you let down your guard. Let your guard down all the way, all the time, and you can form a kinder view of yourself and the world, and form hopes that have the potential to be realized. When reality is the baseline expectation instead of some wishful idea of what it should be, then you need not be disappointed when things play out the way they tend to.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
popeye1945
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Re: Group Thought, It's Pros And Cons

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Nick,
Excellent, I believe there is much to consider when one looks at the systems humanity has created to serve, when in fact they ultimately fail to serve and consume the individual or force humanity to serve it. Great stuff going to check this Simone out!
Nick_A
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Re: Group Thought, It's Pros And Cons

Post by Nick_A »

chewybrian wrote: May 16th, 2021, 6:45 am
Nick_A wrote: May 15th, 2021, 11:56 pm
chewybrian wrote: May 15th, 2021, 6:09 pm
Nick_A wrote: May 15th, 2021, 5:08 pm The great danger of collectivism is its tendency to devolve reason into a means for justifying the secular pragmatic desires of the state as opposed to the normal human need for experiencing universal truths. When the means only exist to serve the ends defined by the collective, Society remains an atom of the Great Beast or sub human with the potential to become human or what human being is capable of without being indoctrinated by the collective
It seems like we are there now (or maybe we have been for a long time). We seem to be living in a high school debate class. Most people use whatever means possible to support the decision they've already made (or had made for them), rather than searching for the real truth. They are not strong enough to admit that they might have been mistaken. They've been taught well how to defend crap positions, but not how to tell crap from truth.

A great society would be careful to teach children how to think for themselves, unafraid of the consequences. If our ideas are right, people who can think for themselves will confirm their worth. If the ideas are wrong, they can show us something better. Either way, we win and man advances.
But the young are not supposed to think for themselves but become indoctrinated beings like their parents. Even now the the young are gathering in mobs intent on destroying the hard work of others for the cause of an impossible concept called social justice. If the young could think for themselves it would jeopardize control by given agendas. That is what the Metaphysical Repression thread is about. When education, media, and secularized religion are all against becoming capable of thinking for themselves so as to "Know Thyself," who can the young turn to when they begin to sense that they live in an absurd situation? Not many choices so Man turns in circles rather than advancing.
Image

The solution is to stop turning to "solutions" and to embrace reality. You have only the fact of your own experience; (at least most of) the rest is contrived b.s. When you turn to yourself for answers, with your eyes wide open, then you can see truth, even if the truth is that you have no answer. When you accept reality instead of trying to build it, you are relieved of the pointless, constant effort required to prop up the lie, and of the fear that the truth will catch up with you when you let down your guard. Let your guard down all the way, all the time, and you can form a kinder view of yourself and the world, and form hopes that have the potential to be realized. When reality is the baseline expectation instead of some wishful idea of what it should be, then you need not be disappointed when things play out the way they tend to.
If people as whole could actually look, the truth would be obvious. But how many are able to look with impartiality and without pre-conditioned judgement? Simone wrote:
There Comes

If you do not fight it---if you look, just
look, steadily,
upon it,

there comes
a moment when you cannot do it,
if it is evil;

if good, a moment
when you cannot
not.
If you know anyone capable of impartial looking, I'd really like to meet them.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Group Thought, It's Pros And Cons

Post by Pattern-chaser »

chewybrian wrote: May 15th, 2021, 6:09 pm
Nick_A wrote: May 15th, 2021, 5:08 pm The great danger of collectivism is its tendency to devolve reason into a means for justifying the secular pragmatic desires of the state as opposed to the normal human need for experiencing universal truths. When the means only exist to serve the ends defined by the collective, Society remains an atom of the Great Beast or sub human with the potential to become human or what human being is capable of without being indoctrinated by the collective
It seems like we are there now (or maybe we have been for a long time). We seem to be living in a high school debate class. Most people use whatever means possible to support the decision they've already made (or had made for them), rather than searching for the real truth. They are not strong enough to admit that they might have been mistaken. They've been taught well how to defend crap positions, but not how to tell crap from truth.

Yes, I agree, especially that it's been like this for a long time. This is how humans 'think', in everyday terms: they accept without question the 'truths' they are given by social media, or whatever. And they "defend" their "crap positions" with violence, usually verbal, but sometimes more than that. Truth is determined a la Bush, Blair and (more recently) Trump, by constantly and loudly repeating your 'truth', no matter what objections are raised. Evidence? What's that? We don't like your kind round here, boy....
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Re: Group Thought, It's Pros And Cons

Post by Sculptor1 »

It's all cons as far as I am concerned.
It's only necessary when some other groups starts to oppress you are others like you.
Palestine was not host to a distinctive ethnic or nationalist grouping until white settlers from Europe and American flooded the British Protectorate and seized control of the region. It was then that, not only was Israel defined, but "Palestinians" too.
Palestinians became the focus of hate and prejuduce, herded into camps, thrown off their lands and insulted.
Now we have a multiplicity of "Jewish" interests from disparate regions of the world and disparate races, imposing their will against Muslims of various sorts.

There is nothing positive about this.
I am only interested in the promotion of integration. Multiculturalism is just a species of soft racism which can only lead to bloodshed and prejudice eventually.
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E

Post by Ecurb »

Some common beliefs (many of which are ridiculous on their face) that are promoted by "group thought" include:

--The idea that the world is a sphere.. Nobody in his right mind would come to this conclusion from obsrervation. But try to deny it! People will act like you're a moron.

--The idea that time is not constant. Come on now! This defies common sense, and none of us have ever done any experiments supporting this ridiculous notion! But most educated people will parrot this meme, and woe to he who does not!

--The notion that humans evolved from one celled animals, and that life evolved naturally from non-life. Talk about straining credulity and common sense! The only reason anyone belives this stuff is the pressure from the group to conform. Heck, try to deny it and you won't pass high school biology!

These are just a few of the influences (pernicious or not?) of group thought. Most of what we "know", we know only because of "group thought". If Newton saw further than others, it was because he stood on the shoulders of giants. Indeed, it is the COLLECTIVE -- not individual intelligence -- that has moved science, the arts, math, logic, etc. forward. Our ability to harness collective thought through language and exchange it through education and writing is what makes us human.

Or do some posters mean by "group thought" those thoughts promoted by groups with whom they disagree?
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Re: Group Thought, It's Pros And Cons

Post by Tegularius »

Group thought is usually the opposite of what is called thinking. Those who control a group are the only ones allowed to think which members must follow. The main objective of group thought is thought control, a paradigm which remains in force.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

Post by Sy Borg »

popeye1945 wrote: May 15th, 2021, 12:41 pm Group thought the pros and cons, it certainly has both going for it. I try at times to question myself when I find myself in agreement with the majority. I ask myself if my agreement hasn't been influenced by the desire to belong, to be liked. I am not a religious person, but often envy friends with the comfort they find in group belief/thought and the community that goes with it. To some degree just belonging to society depends upon acceptance of the group thought of the majority whether that is done on an entirely conscious level or not.
Humans have always formed "gangs" and enforced conformity. Tribes. Fiefdoms. Religions. Kingdoms. Dictatorships. The intensity of the demands for conformity and the resistance to those demands fluctuates from time to time.

As populations increase with global communications networks, everyone has to watch their Ps and Qs. I expect this is how the "inscrutable" east Asian character cliché developed. East Asians have had to deal with overpopulation for much longer than the west. Simply, the more people there are, the less free everyone is, and the more likely that competitive groups will form that demand conformity.

IMO not being surrounded by pushy, judgemental humans all the time makes life simpler. Even the nicest of people are pushy and judgemental to some extent. Thus, many seem to prefer their pets to humans. Dogs and cats only judge if you fail as a carer; they accept your individuality entirely. Other animals and plants are are like peaceful oases dotted around a sea of human opinions and judgementalism. It's a shame we are wiping them out and replacing them with more people. Perhaps robots will will be the "quiet oases" of the future?

Still, as people age, their professional and sexual ambitions diminish, they become more free. They are less pressured to yield to be part of groups, although many miss this opportunity through being set in their ways.

As a rule, I do not take the words of those who sprout a "party line" to heart. After all, one can obtain the same opinions - more eloquently expressed and defended - from smarter people in the news, in videos or online. I'm interested in the creative and original ideas of individuals who have pondered life and existence - not those who repeat the orthodox beliefs of their religion, cult, industry, social group etc.

Oh well, "getting with the strength" - aligning to the powerful - is a time-honoured survival strategy. We all seem very different to each other but, if hypothetical aliens landed on Earth, I expect they would struggle to tell, say, Republicans and Democrats apart, just as we might struggle to tell, say, spider monkeys apart. An anthopocentric focus results in amplifying our differences, resulting in a more detailed social awareness. The opportunity cost of social focus is not considering the broader context in which these passion plays unfold:

Image

IMO not taking time out from anthropocentric thinking is a source of great despair and misery. What value is a group's opinion when they are just a small portion of a temporary, dynamic, extremely thin, organic hydrous layer on the surface of a single planet?
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

Post by popeye1945 »

Sy Borg,

Excellent much food for thought. One particular type of group thought which is intriguing is when the subject isn't aware of his indoctrination. I attended a church service with a friend a while back [most unusual for me] and was struck by the obvious brainwashing methods in use. I am sure my friend would not have appreciated my pointing them out.
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

Post by Sy Borg »

popeye1945 wrote: May 16th, 2021, 10:44 pm Sy Borg,

Excellent much food for thought. One particular type of group thought which is intriguing is when the subject isn't aware of his indoctrination. I attended a church service with a friend a while back [most unusual for me] and was struck by the obvious brainwashing methods in use. I am sure my friend would not have appreciated my pointing them out.
Popeye, I suspect it's a matter of degree, although religions have made indoctrination into a fine art.

The older I get, the more I notice indoctrination in me - both religious and secular - despite my lifelong question to have a "clean mental windshield". Alas, there's still plenty of dead bugs and tree droppings to clean off, so to speak. As you know, the quest for clarity is always a work in progress.
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