Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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LuckyR
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

Post by LuckyR »

Sy Borg wrote: May 17th, 2021, 1:19 am
popeye1945 wrote: May 16th, 2021, 10:44 pm Sy Borg,

Excellent much food for thought. One particular type of group thought which is intriguing is when the subject isn't aware of his indoctrination. I attended a church service with a friend a while back [most unusual for me] and was struck by the obvious brainwashing methods in use. I am sure my friend would not have appreciated my pointing them out.
Popeye, I suspect it's a matter of degree, although religions have made indoctrination into a fine art.

The older I get, the more I notice indoctrination in me - both religious and secular - despite my lifelong question to have a "clean mental windshield". Alas, there's still plenty of dead bugs and tree droppings to clean off, so to speak. As you know, the quest for clarity is always a work in progress.
There is nothing wrong with "dead bugs and tree droppings" ie biases, as long as one is aware them and compensates for them. Am I blind to race? No. Do I likely conceptualize members of different races identically the same in my mind? No, probably not. Do I actually provide professional services differently to members of different races? No, definitely not. How do I accomplish this? By being "blind" to race? No, by acknowledging and embracing my biases and consciously compensating for them. Those of us who have the luxury of professional guidelines and standards have a yardstick to measure performance in real time and thus can guarantee uniform deliverance of services within a nonuniform environment.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

Post by Sy Borg »

LuckyR wrote: May 17th, 2021, 1:41 am
Sy Borg wrote: May 17th, 2021, 1:19 am
popeye1945 wrote: May 16th, 2021, 10:44 pm Sy Borg,

Excellent much food for thought. One particular type of group thought which is intriguing is when the subject isn't aware of his indoctrination. I attended a church service with a friend a while back [most unusual for me] and was struck by the obvious brainwashing methods in use. I am sure my friend would not have appreciated my pointing them out.
Popeye, I suspect it's a matter of degree, although religions have made indoctrination into a fine art.

The older I get, the more I notice indoctrination in me - both religious and secular - despite my lifelong question to have a "clean mental windshield". Alas, there's still plenty of dead bugs and tree droppings to clean off, so to speak. As you know, the quest for clarity is always a work in progress.
There is nothing wrong with "dead bugs and tree droppings" ie biases, as long as one is aware them and compensates for them. Am I blind to race? No. Do I likely conceptualize members of different races identically the same in my mind? No, probably not. Do I actually provide professional services differently to members of different races? No, definitely not. How do I accomplish this? By being "blind" to race? No, by acknowledging and embracing my biases and consciously compensating for them. Those of us who have the luxury of professional guidelines and standards have a yardstick to measure performance in real time and thus can guarantee uniform deliverance of services within a nonuniform environment.
Race blindness is induced by repeated contact, as is the case for any human variance, which you no doubt notice with your repeat patients. In time, you can develop a whole new new objectification. Instead of thinking to yourself, "that's the huge black dude" you'll think "that's the dude with a congenital heart murmur and diabetes on Jardiance 25mg" :)

We'll always lump people together in some way. That's what happens when you have more cursory than repeated contact. So strangers end up being effectively more one's environment than individuals, and they are unconsciously grouped and classified, just as our ancestors did. However, as you say, we can think past these inherited impulses, to know in our minds that strangers might seem like an amorphous mass but we know that each person has a story.
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: May 17th, 2021, 5:11 am We'll always lump people together in some way.
Yes, I think we have always done this. Sadly, one aspect of this is sorting people into 'them' and 'us', which is often a prequel to aiding 'us' and opposing (maybe even violently) 'them'. There are other such aspects too, of course.
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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popeye1945 wrote: May 16th, 2021, 10:44 pm Sy Borg,

Excellent much food for thought. One particular type of group thought which is intriguing is when the subject isn't aware of his indoctrination. I attended a church service with a friend a while back [most unusual for me] and was struck by the obvious brainwashing methods in use. I am sure my friend would not have appreciated my pointing them out.
Indoctrination and brainwashing are terms which (IMO) we should use carefully. Consider the schooling and education of our children and young people. If we approve of the education they're given, we might describe it and refer to it as preparing them for life in society by teaching them all the things they need to know. But if we don't approve of their education, we might describe it as indoctrination or brainwashing. It's like describing people as 'freedom fighters' if we approve of them and/or their struggle, and 'terrorists' if we don't.
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

Post by Ecurb »

Pattern-chaser wrote: May 17th, 2021, 9:18 am

Indoctrination and brainwashing are terms which (IMO) we should use carefully. Consider the schooling and education of our children and young people. If we approve of the education they're given, we might describe it and refer to it as preparing them for life in society by teaching them all the things they need to know. But if we don't approve of their education, we might describe it as indoctrination or brainwashing. It's like describing people as 'freedom fighters' if we approve of them and/or their struggle, and 'terrorists' if we don't.
The same is true of terms like "group think" -- as I pointed out in my earlier post.
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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Pattern Chaser.

Point well taken, from my atheist perspective it looked like brainwashing, from his simple orientation, or part of the ritual.
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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One conditioning point in that of groupthink , if you wish to know who controls you, look to that which you are not allowed to criticize
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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LOL!! Ecelllent!!!
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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Group thought is a bit feminine. ← statement open for criticism.

I think most of the contributors in this topic may be male far. Sorry in case I got that wrong.

Think about when you have seen a group of women talking/chatting/gossiping. Notice how they can behave as a group. They can all talk at the same time yet somehow end up with a common understanding of topics. If listening closely the actual words often do not fit with the information that has been exchanged. There is a sub communication within and a common group thought framework. Information is exchanged with each other in the group via this mechanism. Very difficult for a man to follow and comprehend, and for those that can it is very exhausting. Usually, men will just go do something else because the group garble is hard on the ears.

Men often exchange ideas in more of a non-group method. Can be a group of men, but usually, the speaking is one at a time and the communication is one-to-one or one to many but not group speak.

I don't see it as good or bad, it just is.

The primary tool for enforcement of group thought is shame. The primary tool for being independent of group thought is self-esteem. Self-esteem can negate the power of shame.

I concur with all that have suggested religion as using group think vs shame.
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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mystery wrote: May 18th, 2021, 1:58 am Group thought is a bit feminine. ← statement open for criticism.

I think most of the contributors in this topic may be male far. Sorry in case I got that wrong.

Think about when you have seen a group of women talking/chatting/gossiping. Notice how they can behave as a group. They can all talk at the same time yet somehow end up with a common understanding of topics. If listening closely the actual words often do not fit with the information that has been exchanged. There is a sub communication within and a common group thought framework. Information is exchanged with each other in the group via this mechanism. Very difficult for a man to follow and comprehend, and for those that can it is very exhausting. Usually, men will just go do something else because the group garble is hard on the ears.

Men often exchange ideas in more of a non-group method. Can be a group of men, but usually, the speaking is one at a time and the communication is one-to-one or one to many but not group speak.
To me the "group" in group think, is a little different than what you are referring to. That is it is addressing the additional influence of an opinion whose source is a known group, thus gaining more popularity than it deserves on it's own.
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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mystery wrote: May 18th, 2021, 1:58 am Think about when you have seen a group of women talking/chatting/gossiping. Notice how they can behave as a group. They can all talk at the same time yet somehow end up with a common understanding of topics. If listening closely the actual words often do not fit with the information that has been exchanged. There is a sub communication within and a common group thought framework. Information is exchanged with each other in the group via this mechanism. Very difficult for a man to follow and comprehend, and for those that can it is very exhausting. Usually, men will just go do something else because the group garble is hard on the ears.

No, women aren't from Venus, they come from Earth, as men do. There is no secret women's language, unknown and incomprehensible to men. Women just don't indulge in the ego-based willy-waving that preoccupies so many men. IMO.
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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I was raised--by parents and extended family and friends--by libertarians/"freethinkers"/hippies/etc. who encouraged following one's own muse, "letting one's freak flag fly," following existential authenticity, and so on, so I avoided a lot of the seduction of adopting opinions just to fit in with or be accepted by a social group.
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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Pattern-chaser wrote: May 18th, 2021, 1:53 pm
mystery wrote: May 18th, 2021, 1:58 am Think about when you have seen a group of women talking/chatting/gossiping. Notice how they can behave as a group. They can all talk at the same time yet somehow end up with a common understanding of topics. If listening closely the actual words often do not fit with the information that has been exchanged. There is a sub communication within and a common group thought framework. Information is exchanged with each other in the group via this mechanism. Very difficult for a man to follow and comprehend, and for those that can it is very exhausting. Usually, men will just go do something else because the group garble is hard on the ears.

No, women aren't from Venus, they come from Earth, as men do. There is no secret women's language, unknown and incomprehensible to men. Women just don't indulge in the ego-based willy-waving that preoccupies so many men. IMO.
Sure, not sure if we disagree or are on a different idea. It can be either. I believe many/most women use sub communication meaning that when they have an emotional idea it gets verbalized as something else. Other women will in some way be able to identify the real concept while men may be confused as they try to make sense of the actual words.

A very course example of the idea is presented in one of our common television shows.
"Darmok" is the 102nd episode of the American science fiction television series Star Trek: The Next Generation, the second episode of the fifth season.
enDOTwikipediaDOTorg/wiki/Darmok

Symbolism and emotion are presented to convey meaning while the actual words are not useful without context.

Chaser, are you understand the idea and disagree, or did my initial statements not convey the idea?
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

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Terrapin Station wrote: May 18th, 2021, 5:20 pm I was raised--by parents and extended family and friends--by libertarians/"freethinkers"/hippies/etc. who encouraged following one's own muse, "letting one's freak flag fly," following existential authenticity, and so on, so I avoided a lot of the seduction of adopting opinions just to fit in with or be accepted by a social group.
What about the opinion that one should follow one's own muse and let one's freak flag fly? Or don't those count?

I don't think anyone avoids the seduction of adopting opinions to fit in. We are social animals. Most of what we "know" is what we have been taught by people we admire or trust -- our parents, our teachers, the authors of books. Some of us trust scientists, historians and philosophers, others astrologers, gurus and conspiracy theorists,
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Re: Group Thought, Its Pros And Cons

Post by Terrapin Station »

Ecurb wrote: May 18th, 2021, 7:51 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: May 18th, 2021, 5:20 pm I was raised--by parents and extended family and friends--by libertarians/"freethinkers"/hippies/etc. who encouraged following one's own muse, "letting one's freak flag fly," following existential authenticity, and so on, so I avoided a lot of the seduction of adopting opinions just to fit in with or be accepted by a social group.
What about the opinion that one should follow one's own muse and let one's freak flag fly? Or don't those count?

I don't think anyone avoids the seduction of adopting opinions to fit in. We are social animals. Most of what we "know" is what we have been taught by people we admire or trust -- our parents, our teachers, the authors of books. Some of us trust scientists, historians and philosophers, others astrologers, gurus and conspiracy theorists,
"I avoided a lot of the seduction of adopting opinions just to fit in with or be accepted by a social group" has very different semantic content than "Not a single view that anyone I knew had influenced me."
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