There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

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popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

"Take one away and the other ceases to be" would make zero sense if we were talking about something inseparable, because there would only be one thing. There's no "one" and "the other" to even make sense of the sentence.
[/quote]

Terrapin Station,
Ok, now you're getting it, it makes no sense because it is not possible, the resultant effect would be zero. Remember that your apparent reality is of a cognitive knowing, without object there is no knowing, no cognition. If you take away the subject there is no object and again no knowing no cognition.
popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

[/quote=Popeye, I believe I understand what you are saying here. I think the problem that you're running into in explaining this is you're trying to use a type of language and reasoning that is dualistic in nature to explain a non-dualistic idea - the very act of thinking or talking in terms of subjects and objects, or actions and reactions, is already dualistic.
Have you read Robert Pirsig's work by chance? He explores at length the very idea you are talking about here but it takes him his first full book just to lay out the problem and propose his solution by suggesting an alternative to what he calls the subjective/objective metaphysics or mindset. I think it's really interesting how he resolves this issue. Prisig is maybe looked down upon by academic philosophy because of the informal way he chose to present his ideas, but I've found them to be of value in making sense of the issues around subject/object relationship.
[/quote]

Thomyum,
Thanks for the input I shall give it more thought and look into this Robert Prsig's work perhaps it wouldn't be so much a struggle getting my point across after reading him.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Is "the thought that is used in deciding" something like "I can move my right arm or my left arm"? Or do you have something else in mind?
[/quote]

Terrapin Station,
I believe I know the difficulty your struggling with, that fact is on a neurological basis decisions are already made before we become conscious of making the decision. There is a delay factor small but nevertheless it is there.
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Terrapin Station
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 5:52 pm "Take one away and the other ceases to be" would make zero sense if we were talking about something inseparable, because there would only be one thing. There's no "one" and "the other" to even make sense of the sentence.
Terrapin Station,
Ok, now you're getting it, it makes no sense because it is not possible, the resultant effect would be zero. Remember that your apparent reality is of a cognitive knowing, without object there is no knowing, no cognition. If you take away the subject there is no object and again no knowing no cognition.
[/quote]

Oy vey.

You're writing "Take ONE away and the OTHER ceases to be."

One and the other can't be inseparable, or you'd not be able to even write a sentence like that, because the sentence would make no sense to you.

Seriously, participating on these boards is like trying to figure out how to communicate with educated retards.
popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 4th, 2021, 7:14 pm
popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 5:52 pm "Take one away and the other ceases to be" would make zero sense if we were talking about something inseparable, because there would only be one thing. There's no "one" and "the other" to even make sense of the sentence.
Terrapin Station,
Ok, now you're getting it, it makes no sense because it is not possible, the resultant effect would be zero. Remember that your apparent reality is of a cognitive knowing, without object there is no knowing, no cognition. If you take away the subject there is no object and again no knowing no cognition.
Oy vey.

You're writing "Take ONE away and the OTHER ceases to be."

One and the other can't be inseparable, or you'd not be able to even write a sentence like that, because the sentence would make no sense to you.

Seriously, participating on these boards is like trying to figure out how to communicate with educated retards.
[/quote]

Terrapin Station,
Perhaps you will tell me then how apparent reality comes about. Because you cannot understand something it doesn't make the other guys fault. I'll try as long as you stay civil.
popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Try to remember that the physical world as you know it is cognitive, no cognition no physical world. On an individual level when a person closes their eyes in death a world dies. Subtract all conscious beings and the entire world ceases to be, on a cognitive level but that is the only way of knowing.
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mystery
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by mystery »

RJG wrote: June 4th, 2021, 2:54 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:Is "the thought that is used in deciding" something like "I can move my right arm or my left arm"? Or do you have something else in mind?
Yes it could be if that is somehow used in the decision process.

RJG wrote:Are you referring to "conscious decisions or "non-conscious" decisions (aka bodily reactions)?
  • Conscious (consciously made) decisions are logically impossible.
    Non-consciously made decisions are possible (...they happen all the time!)
ALL of our decisions are made without our knowledge. The knowing (consciousness) of our decisions is always 'after'-the-fact (after the decision has already been made).

********
To help better understand the logical impossibility of "consciously made decisions", ask yourself the following:
  • 1. Did you consciously (knowingly) choose the thoughts that were used in deciding?
    • If NO, then "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
      If YES, then go to question #2
Thomyum2 wrote:When you say nonconsciously made decisions, do you mean subconsciously made decisions?
No. The way I see it is that you are either conscious of X, or you are not conscious of X. One or the other.

Thomyum2 wrote:If yes, then "YOU" are still making the decisions - the subconscious is still part of "YOU", isn't it?
If no, then who, or what, is making the decision?
Non-conscious decisions are bodily reactions.
Conscious decisions are logically impossible.

Therefore, ALL our decisions are non-consciously made (are just "bodily reactions"); they are made without our knowledge. The knowing (consciousness) of our decisions is always 'after'-the-fact (after the decision has already been made).
This is interesting,
Did you learn this approach/concept from another or invent/make it up? Are any exceptions to this rule?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 11:00 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: June 4th, 2021, 7:14 pm
popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 5:52 pm "Take one away and the other ceases to be" would make zero sense if we were talking about something inseparable, because there would only be one thing. There's no "one" and "the other" to even make sense of the sentence.
Terrapin Station,
Ok, now you're getting it, it makes no sense because it is not possible, the resultant effect would be zero. Remember that your apparent reality is of a cognitive knowing, without object there is no knowing, no cognition. If you take away the subject there is no object and again no knowing no cognition.
Oy vey.

You're writing "Take ONE away and the OTHER ceases to be."

One and the other can't be inseparable, or you'd not be able to even write a sentence like that, because the sentence would make no sense to you.

Seriously, participating on these boards is like trying to figure out how to communicate with educated retards.
Terrapin Station,
Perhaps you will tell me then how apparent reality comes about. Because you cannot understand something it doesn't make the other guys fault. I'll try as long as you stay civil.
[/quote]

Are you deserving of "civility"?
popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Goood night Gracey!!
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Thomyum2
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Thomyum2 »

RJG wrote: June 4th, 2021, 2:54 pm
Thomyum2 wrote:When you say nonconsciously made decisions, do you mean subconsciously made decisions?
No. The way I see it is that you are either conscious of X, or you are not conscious of X. One or the other.

Thomyum2 wrote:If yes, then "YOU" are still making the decisions - the subconscious is still part of "YOU", isn't it?
If no, then who, or what, is making the decision?
Non-conscious decisions are bodily reactions.
Conscious decisions are logically impossible.

Therefore, ALL our decisions are non-consciously made (are just "bodily reactions"); they are made without our knowledge. The knowing (consciousness) of our decisions is always 'after'-the-fact (after the decision has already been made).
Since your body is part of "YOU", then it is still "YOU" who is making the decision, even if it is "non-conscious". My body is integral to me - what happens to my body happens to me; what my body does is done by me.

Moreover, although thoughts about a decision may come after the fact, we can still consciously make a decision about as to how we will act in a given situation and when those circumstances occur so that our bodies will act accordingly. How else could we ever learn or develop skills to perform certain tasks? A pilot flying a plane, for example, must consciously train to react in certain ways to certain events so that when those events occur in the course of a flight, they (their bodies) will operate the plane safely. Those are thoughts that are translated into 'bodily reactions' - conscious decisions made in advance that direct one's actions, via now-unconscious decisions, at a later time.

How about if I rephrased this to say that we (the part of we that is our bodies) act/react based on values, not on thoughts. The thoughts come after the fact of the actions. And in reflecting in thought on the consequences of those actions, and in consideration of whether or not those actions fulfilled the intention of the values, we then can consciously refine our values so that our body will react differently if the same or similar situation is encountered again. Would that be a fair statement?

As I see it, the decisions are ours, but the ability to act according to our decision is a skill that requires attention, practice and refinement over time.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

You say the decisions are ours, but there is in the lab a delay of a few seconds so it can be known what the subject is going to do before he himself knows. I think that most people have a limited idea of what consciousness is and where in the body it is to be found, so however, it works as yet its not all that clear indeed it has to be in the subject. My statement in the OP stands though I think there is no human action there is but human reaction. The organism has to have an object to respond/react to. It is a permanent function of being of the world.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

popeye1945 wrote: June 6th, 2021, 12:41 am You say the decisions are ours, but there is in the lab a delay of a few seconds so it can be known what the subject is going to do before he himself knows. I think that most people have a limited idea of what consciousness is and where in the body it is to be found, so however, it works as yet its not all that clear indeed it has to be in the subject. My statement in the OP stands though I think there is no human action there is but human reaction. The organism has to have an object to respond/react to. It is a permanent function of being of the world.
There's no way to know that brain state x is S making "decision" prior to S knowing that S made decision d. The best you can know is that brain state x is S making decision d prior to S being able to communicate that they've made decision d, and possibly S making decision d prior to S being fully aware they've made decision d.

For the latter, the best case experimental scenario would be this: S's brain state, x, is observed at time T1. S later (later would have to be at least a second or so) informs the experimenter, at time T2, that S has made decision d. Something concomitant to T1, c, would have to be observed by S (even if c is simply a time reading on a clock). Then, we'd need to query S whether they believe they made decision d at the time they observed c (hence why at least a second would be necessary--if the temporal gap is too small then S couldn't clearly peg priority). The problem here, though, is that for S to be able to communicate that they made decision d in this scenario, it has to be the case that they were contemplating decision d prior to making the decision. And in that contemplation, S might not be fully aware that S has settled on one option or another at time T1, even though they really have, and thus the time delay is simply due to the way that cognitive processing works from making a decision with respect to what's being contemplated to being fully certain that one has made a decision so as to put it into an action potential (and then there's going to be some time lag to put it into action, too).

In other words, if I ask you to choose to push button A or button B, and I ask you to flip lever C as soon as you've reached a decision to push button A or B, then as soon as I ask you, at time T0, you're contemplating pushing button A or B, and you could easily "delude" yourself that at T1 you haven't yet 100% settled on which button you've decided to push--even though clearly you have to be contemplating it at T1, and when in reality you have already made what counts as your decision at T1; it's just that there's a time lag between that and you realizing with 100% confidence that you've made your decision so as to act upon it.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Thomyum2 »

popeye1945 wrote: June 6th, 2021, 12:41 am You say the decisions are ours, but there is in the lab a delay of a few seconds so it can be known what the subject is going to do before he himself knows. I think that most people have a limited idea of what consciousness is and where in the body it is to be found, so however, it works as yet its not all that clear indeed it has to be in the subject. My statement in the OP stands though I think there is no human action there is but human reaction. The organism has to have an object to respond/react to. It is a permanent function of being of the world.
I agree that consciousness is not well understood - I'd say even that the word itself is used in so many different ways that it's not even clear what is meant by it, let alone what it objectively is. In light of that, I don't think the delay of seconds is really meaningful as it's only measuring the time it take for something to form into memory and thought - that really doesn't say anything about the connection between consciousness and action. I do still say the decisions are ours - why would the reactions that our bodies make not be 'ours' simply because it takes a small amount of time before there is brain activity or the ability to think or speak about them such that they can be detected or measured by an outside observer ?

Again, I'd refer you to Robert Pirsig's much more extensive discussion of this - there a clean way to resolve the paradox, but I'm not going to give it away. :) Here one of his quotes you may like:
Logic presumes a separation of subject from object; therefore logic is not final wisdom.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Thomyum2

I agree that consciousness is not well understood - I'd say even that the word itself is used in so many different ways that it's not even clear what is meant by it, let alone what it objectively is. In light of that, I don't think the delay of seconds is really meaningful as it's only measuring the time it take for something to form into memory and thought - that really doesn't say anything about the connection between consciousness and action. I do still say the decisions are ours - why would the reactions that our bodies make not be 'ours' simply because it takes a small amount of time before there is brain activity or the ability to think or speak about them such that they can be detected or measured by an outside observer ?

Again, I'd refer you to Robert Pirsig's much more extensive discussion of this - there a clean way to resolve the paradox, but I'm not going to give it away. :) Here one of his quotes you may like:
Logic presumes a separation of subject from object; therefore logic is not final wisdom.
[/quote]

Thomyum2,
Is Robert Pirsig's work online? It does sound interesting if it is not online I'll pick up the book. Thanks again Thomyum!!
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:Non-conscious decisions are bodily reactions.
Conscious decisions are logically impossible.

Therefore, ALL our decisions are non-consciously made (are just "bodily reactions"); they are made without our knowledge. The knowing (consciousness) of our decisions is always 'after'-the-fact (after the decision has already been made).
mystery wrote:Did you learn this approach/concept from another or invent/make it up? Are any exceptions to this rule?
This is just my interpretation of truth as per the axioms of Simple Logic. To better understand, refer to my OP entitled "The Logical Implication of CTD" in the Epistemology and Metaphysics section.

Thomyum2 wrote:Since your body is part of "YOU", then it is still "YOU" who is making the decision, even if it is "non-conscious". My body is integral to me - what happens to my body happens to me; what my body does is done by me.
Yes, if you define "YOU" as both the physical and mental parts of you then yes it is still "YOU" making the decision. But the mental (or conscious) part of you still doesn't know what the physical part of you has decided until 'after' it's been decided.

From a conscious perspective, our decisions are just bodily reactions that we then become aware (conscious) of after-the-fact. We have no conscious say-so in the movements and actions (both physical and mental parts) of ourselves. For everything we are conscious of is a past event; it has already happened. The past cannot be changed. What is done is done.

So, contrary to our indoctrinated beliefs -- We don’t consciously move our bodies about, we are only conscious of our bodies moving about.

Thomyum2 wrote:...we can still consciously make a decision about as to how we will act in a given situation and when those circumstances occur so that our bodies will act accordingly.
Not so. It is logically impossible to make a conscious decision of any kind.

Firstly, if we can't choose those thoughts (feelings/urges/etc) that we use in making decisions, then we can't logically choose anything.

Secondly, everything we are conscious of has already happened; already been caused; already been decided. Consciousness is always after-the-fact. When we are conscious, we are conscious of something, not nothing. Logically this something must exist/happen prior to our consciousness of it. In other words, we can't be conscious-of-X, without there first being an X to be conscious of.

Thomyum2 wrote:How else could we ever learn or develop skills to perform certain tasks?
Again, contrary to popular belief/indoctrination we don't learn consciously. Our bodies act reactively, as they have been conditioned to do so (i.e. response to stimuli). Our consciousness of said bodily reaction is always after-the-fact and therefore has no say-so in the matter.

We don’t 'consciously' cause a particular response (to a given stimuli), we are only conscious of the particular response we (our body) made. Therefore, consciousness has no causal role in the body’s reaction/response to any given stimuli. -- The acceptance of this realization, especially by those in our education system, in my opinion, could have a profound effect on the learning efficiency and capacity of our students.
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