There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

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popeye1945
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There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

I think there is nothing more fundamental than the realization that like all organisms we are reactionary creatures. When not much was known of the world, particularly evolution by natural selection it was understandable that we in our position of free will, that we act out of that in the form of action, but freewill itself is an illusion. We are an interacting/read reacting to something larger than ourselves. Something like part to part, part to the whole, and the whole to each of its parts. We weren't drop in here, we are the earth, the eyes and consciousness of the earth.

One needs to be move within before one can be move without. If you must be motivated by need, desire, or want for something outside yourself, this, qualifies as a reaction, not action. Internally many of your bodily functions are reacting to the physical world below your consciousness level. Disease is entirely a reactive problem, disease of old age if you can call it that, is just a reaction to not being able to keep up on the repairs of the body, that is what old age is. Injury and/or complications from an intrusion of the body is reaction. So I know there are people out there just waiting to give me an example of an action I cannot possibly call a reaction, so I am all ears,
Nick_A
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Nick_A »

popeye1945 wrote: May 19th, 2021, 4:32 pm I think there is nothing more fundamental than the realization that like all organisms we are reactionary creatures. When not much was known of the world, particularly evolution by natural selection it was understandable that we in our position of free will, that we act out of that in the form of action, but freewill itself is an illusion. We are an interacting/read reacting to something larger than ourselves. Something like part to part, part to the whole, and the whole to each of its parts. We weren't drop in here, we are the earth, the eyes and consciousness of the earth.

One needs to be move within before one can be move without. If you must be motivated by need, desire, or want for something outside yourself, this, qualifies as a reaction, not action. Internally many of your bodily functions are reacting to the physical world below your consciousness level. Disease is entirely a reactive problem, disease of old age if you can call it that, is just a reaction to not being able to keep up on the repairs of the body, that is what old age is. Injury and/or complications from an intrusion of the body is reaction. So I know there are people out there just waiting to give me an example of an action I cannot possibly call a reaction, so I am all ears,
Hi Popeye

I agree with you that animal Man is a creature of reaction. However conscious Man not only reacts but is capable of conscious action. Mechanical reaction begins when we awaken from being asleep in bed. We call this awakening becoming conscious. Actually it is just a higher quality of sleep.

The ability to observe oneself from a higher quality of consciousness is the beginning of human consciousness. Some call it self awareness. It is my awareness that I am aware and we first experience it as a spark of human consciousness.

When a person struggles against his mechanical self or the dominance of our acquired personality, it is a conscious evolutionary action against our dominant animal nature leading to inner freedom.

Only dead fish appear to swim downstream. The inner attraction to consciousness requires swimming upstream and against the natural influences which create creatures of reaction moving downstream. Conscious action opposes mechanical reaction and essential in order to leave Plato's Cave
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Nick,
It all sounds very esoteric, I was looking more for a concrete human action that could not be interpreted as a reaction. Give me an example of this said conscious action which opposes reaction. I believe that human action is quite impossible, it is just the nature of the reality in which we find ourselves.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Steve3007 »

popeye1945 wrote:So I know there are people out there just waiting to give me an example of an action I cannot possibly call a reaction, so I am all ears.
This is a version of the class of discussions that could be called "free-will versus determinism" or perhaps "are there uncaused causes?" or similar.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, we lived in a universe in which everything that happens is, in principle, the necessary consequence of some prior thing that happened. But suppose the number of interacting objects and the chains of causality, in that universe, were so complex that it's impossible, even in principle, to figure out what those chains of causality actually are? In other words, suppose we postulate that if we rewound time and placed everything in exactly the same prior state we'd get everything in the same later state, but acknowledged that it's impossible to actually do so.

Would it be physically meaningful to refer to that universe as "deterministic"?


Anyway, yesterday while driving home by myself I suddenly shouted "wibble!". What do you reckon that was a reaction to?
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mystery
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by mystery »

popeye1945 wrote: May 19th, 2021, 4:32 pm I think there is nothing more fundamental than the realization that like all organisms we are reactionary creatures.
I agree. Everything a human does can ultimately be tied back to birth, for no action could exist except the chain of events from birth and even before. The dots can be connected always.

A goal would be to become a single point of light within ourselves so that we act independently of external measure and validation. We should become self-validating and generate our actions from within our own energy. Assuming we do that, and many monks have worked hard to achieve the same, it is probably impossible to get to 100%. Even if we did become our own point of light completely the valid argument of why we did so leads back to it all being reactionary.

I don't think this one is solvable but is interesting.

Is there any action in any context that can not be tied to the reaction of something?

The only thing until I learn more, that is not a reaction is within the concept of God. With God being the single point of light that exists without a previous action. Even the universe by science is a reaction to the Bang. Now the bang itself I don't know.
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Thomyum2
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Thomyum2 »

popeye1945 wrote: May 19th, 2021, 4:32 pm I think there is nothing more fundamental than the realization that like all organisms we are reactionary creatures. When not much was known of the world, particularly evolution by natural selection it was understandable that we in our position of free will, that we act out of that in the form of action, but freewill itself is an illusion. We are an interacting/read reacting to something larger than ourselves. Something like part to part, part to the whole, and the whole to each of its parts. We weren't drop in here, we are the earth, the eyes and consciousness of the earth.

One needs to be move within before one can be move without. If you must be motivated by need, desire, or want for something outside yourself, this, qualifies as a reaction, not action. Internally many of your bodily functions are reacting to the physical world below your consciousness level. Disease is entirely a reactive problem, disease of old age if you can call it that, is just a reaction to not being able to keep up on the repairs of the body, that is what old age is. Injury and/or complications from an intrusion of the body is reaction. So I know there are people out there just waiting to give me an example of an action I cannot possibly call a reaction, so I am all ears,
I consider the creative arts - music, dance, literature, painting, sculpture, architecture, theater, etc. - to be examples of an action that is, at least in part, not only a reaction. Every work of art, although based in an established cultural medium or practice, also contains a seed of some unique personal expression that is specific to its creator and not simply a predictable reaction to what has come before it.

However, before trying to explain this more I have to ask, how would you be able to tell one way or another? You've set the bar so high from the outset by saying that anything that has a motivation from outside is already defined as a reaction, and that many things are subconscious, which means we may have motivations of which we have no conscious knowledge. So what criteria can we possibly turn to to establish whether or not an action contains some element that is not in some way a reaction? You've kind of stacked the deck against any argument from the start.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Pattern-chaser »

popeye1945 wrote: May 19th, 2021, 4:32 pm So I know there are people out there just waiting to give me an example of an action I cannot possibly call a reaction, so I am all ears,
Those in business are often encouraged to behave pro-actively. Artists and other creative people often create something without being forced, or even encouraged, to do so by external events. I am writing this note because I feel like it. I know that I don't have to do it, and I don't feel forced to do it; I choose to. You could say that my post is a reaction to yours, and that is true too, of course. But my 'reaction' is not coerced by anything I can see or feel, as far as I can tell. I suppose it would be more pro-active of me to start a new topic here, one that is not a reaction to other topics. That would be more creative. Nevertheless, I think it is fair to say that we do sometimes behave pro-actively, and much of the time our behaviour is a mixture of reaction and proaction.
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popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Pattern Chaser,
One cannot react but that it has one's will behind it unless one is talking about involuntary movement such as in the case of epilepsy. Your very nature as an organism says that you must react to the greater whole, thus evolution by natural selection. Reaction is the name of the game. Whatever you do in response to this post must be made the aim of your will, motivation, and motivation spells reaction. It is true that the individual does not know what his/her next thought is going to be, but, it is through his/her will that it is reacted to. No there is no mixture, whatever one is reacting to is the fulfillment of the will.
popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Thomyum.

I simply state that any movement on the part of a subject to change, gain, influence or otherwise affect the outside world must be made first the will of the subject. It is the fulfillment of the will and the will must come first, granted I am talking about conscious intent not a convulsion. As to stacking the deck, I am simply stating how it is.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

It's very weird to me that there are so many people on boards like this who claim to not believe in free will.

It's also very weird to me that there are so many people on boards like this who appear to be philosophical idealists (and basically solipsists whether they realize that implication of their views or not).

I have a theory as to why this is, but it's not very charitable towards those folks, so I'll refrain, lol.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Please do!
Nick_A
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Nick_A »

popeye1945 wrote: May 19th, 2021, 10:05 pm Hi Nick,
It all sounds very esoteric, I was looking more for a concrete human action that could not be interpreted as a reaction. Give me an example of this said conscious action which opposes reaction. I believe that human action is quite impossible, it is just the nature of the reality in which we find ourselves.
Have you ever considered if there is a difference between the actions of conscious will and the reactions to desire normal for animal life? Normally we believe our reactions to desire is conscious will. It is not. Conscious will requires sufficient consciousness to oppose the demands of our desires in order to to reach greater understanding. Obviously only a very few are capable of conscious will. The rest are creatures of reaction reacting to conditioned desires.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
popeye1945
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

[/quote]Have you ever considered if there is a difference between the actions of conscious will and the reactions to desire normal for animal life? Normally we believe our reactions to desire is conscious will. It is not. Conscious will requires sufficient consciousness to oppose the demands of our desires in order to to reach greater understanding. Obviously only a very few are capable of conscious will. The rest are creatures of reaction reacting to conditioned desires.
[/quote]

Hi Nick,

So, resisting your own conscious desires puts you on a higher plane? Being on that plane then acomplishes precisely what? At any rate yes, the topic is dealing with the normal functioning of the organism.
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mystery
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

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Terrapin Station wrote: May 20th, 2021, 7:14 pm I have a theory as to why this is, but it's not very charitable towards those folks, so I'll refrain, lol.
Bring it, great value is found in constructive criticism. Being able to deliver it in a useful way is truly an art form.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Nick_A »

popeye1945 wrote: May 20th, 2021, 11:05 pm
Have you ever considered if there is a difference between the actions of conscious will and the reactions to desire normal for animal life? Normally we believe our reactions to desire is conscious will. It is not. Conscious will requires sufficient consciousness to oppose the demands of our desires in order to to reach greater understanding. Obviously only a very few are capable of conscious will. The rest are creatures of reaction reacting to conditioned desires.
[/quote]

Hi Nick,

So, resisting your own conscious desires puts you on a higher plane? Being on that plane then accomplishes precisely what? At any rate yes, the topic is dealing with the normal functioning of the organism.
[/quote]

Popeye, Conscious desires like food, clothing, shelter, etc are essential. Why restrict them? However mechanical acquired desires such as greed prevent one from becoming human. Universal philosophy raises questions that annoy peace loving non-philosophers so they become hostile. how does it put one on a higher plane to admit ones ignorance?

I think I misunderstood the topic. I see you've restricted it to ask if Man as he is, in the prison of Plato's Cave, is capable of anything other than being a creature of reaction? Of course the answer is no
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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