There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

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Terrapin Station
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sy Borg wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 9:42 pm Trivial freedom, of the kind that insects and flatworms enjoy, is not in question, as far as I can tell.
It is when we get to the point of people being silly enough to deny that people can make decisions, act on those decisions, etc. period.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

[/quote="I intentionally did x" and "I willed x" are saying the same thing. Intention in that sense is another way of talking about will. It's not that you have an intention then you need to do something for it to be something you will.
The first step didn't mention anything about a response. It was just that you can have an intention to do something.
The second step is that if you have an intention to do something, at least in some cases, like moving your arm (ceteris paribus--so that you're not paralyzed, etc.), you can move your arm.
[/quote]

Terrapin Station,
The term response was just to clarify that response is reaction, reaction is response. If you make something your intention you have made it your will to do, to react in some way.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 4th, 2021, 7:29 am
popeye1945 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 7:42 pm [/quote=You don't have to choose "I can move my left arm or I can move my right arm" to be able to choose one or the other.
Terrapin Station,
Choice is not an issue, we all have choices as to how to react, at least apparently. Again any movement to affect change is motivated, thus it is a reaction.
What made it an issue is that RJG suggested that decisions are not possible.
[/quote]

Terrapin Station
You have somehow gotten the quotations screwed up, the first one is not mine. The second one attributed to you is a statement of mine.
I do not know why he would say that, the fact that one can choose between possible responses/reactions cleary establishes a decisions being made.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

If you can intelligibly talk about subjects and objects, you and the world, they're separable.
They're only not separable if we can't intelligibly talk about two different things there.

Saying that one thing is separable from another doesn't amount to saying that the things do not interact, it doesn't suggest that they're in a vacuum with respect to each other, that they're somehow (incorrigibly) isolated from each other, etc. It just means that it's not just one, logically identical thing, there can be a distinction made somehow.
[/quote]

Terrapin Station,
No, subject and object are not separable, there is a duality there that is mutually dependent. The physical world as object is the fuel your brain runs upon and thus is created the mind. If you take away the object the subject ceases to be, take away the subject and the world as object ceases to be.The fact that they are inseparable means they are one, which means you are one with the earth as object. Your are a functional part of the earth that is known to you on a cognitive level. You are the ears, eyes, and consciousness of the earth.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 8:35 am I do not know why he would say that, the fact that one can choose between possible responses/reactions cleary establishes a decisions being made.
He apparently thinks it requires that you choose the choice that's to be made, and then he thinks it would require that you choose the choice of the choice that's to be made and so on in an infinite regress.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Correction, there is only seemingly a duality not one in fact.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 8:50 am Terrapin Station,
No, subject and object are not separable, there is a duality there that is mutually dependent. The physical world as object is the fuel your brain runs upon and thus is created the mind. If you take away the object the subject ceases to be, take away the subject and the world as object ceases to be.The fact that they are inseparable means they are one, which means you are one with the earth as object. Your are a functional part of the earth that is known to you on a cognitive level. You are the ears, eyes, and consciousness of the earth.
You're not understanding my comment. If they're not separable, then we literally wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

For example, if your hand isn't separable from a pen, then you'd literally not be able to tell what's your hand and what's the pen. You wouldn't be able to pick up a pen with your hand; it would be the same as asking you to pick up your hand with your (same) hand, or asking you to pick up a pen with the same pen.

That you can make a distinction between your hand and a pen means that they're separable.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

You are missing the point, everything about your knowledge about the physical world is how you react to it. Without thought sure they seem like two things but they indeed are not. The physical world as object is your biological readout on a cognitive level Take away one and the other ceases to be. You need to ponder the relation between subject and object, for as Schopenhauer said, subject and object stand or fall together.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by RJG »

Terrapin Station wrote:What made it an issue is that RJG suggested that decisions are not possible.
Are you referring to "conscious" decisions or "non-conscious" decisions (aka bodily reactions)?
  • Conscious (consciously made) decisions are logically impossible.
    Non-consciously made decisions are possible (...they happen all the time!)
ALL of our decisions are made without our knowledge. The knowing (consciousness) of our decisions is always 'after'-the-fact (after the decision has already been made).

********
To help better understand the logical impossibility of "consciously made decisions", ask yourself the following:
  • 1. Did you consciously (knowingly) choose the thoughts that were used in deciding?
    • If NO, then "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
      If YES, then go to question #2
    2. Did you consciously choose those thoughts that were used to choose these thoughts that were used in deciding?
    • If NO, then "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
      If YES, then go to question #3
    3. Did you consciously choose those thoughts that were used to choose those thoughts that were used to choose these thoughts that were used in deciding?
    • If NO, then "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
      If YES, then go to question #4
    .4. Continue this process until it finally sinks in that "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
THEREFORE, conscious decision-making is logically impossible. All decisions are non-consciously made (are just "bodily reactions"); they are made without our knowledge! ...and only 'after' the decision is made can we then consciously realize what decision was made.
Last edited by RJG on June 4th, 2021, 9:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 9:22 am You are missing the point, everything about your knowledge about the physical world is how you react to it. Without thought sure they seem like two things but they indeed are not. The physical world as object is your biological readout on a cognitive level Take away one and the other ceases to be. You need to ponder the relation between subject and object, for as Schopenhauer said, subject and object stand or fall together.
"Take one away and the other ceases to be" would make zero sense if we were talking about something inseparable, because there would only be one thing. There's no "one" and "the other" to even make sense of the sentence.
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: June 4th, 2021, 9:42 am
Terrapin Station wrote:What made it an issue is that RJG suggested that decisions are not possible.
Are you referring to "conscious" decisions or "non-conscious" decisions (aka bodily reactions)?
  • Conscious (consciously made) decisions are logically impossible.
    Non-consciously made decisions are possible (...they happen all the time!)
ALL of our decisions are made without our knowledge. The knowing (consciousness) of our decisions is always 'after'-the-fact (after the decision has already been made).

********
To help better understand the logical impossibility of "consciously made decisions", ask yourself the following:
  • 1. Did you consciously (knowingly) choose the thoughts that were used in deciding?
    • If NO, then "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
      If YES, then go to question #2
    2. Did you consciously choose those thoughts that were used to choose these thoughts that were used in deciding?
    • If NO, then "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
      If YES, then go to question #3
    3. Did you consciously choose those thoughts that were used to choose those thoughts that were used to choose these thoughts that were used in deciding?
    • If NO, then "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
      If YES, then go to question #4
    .4. Continue this process until it finally sinks in that "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
THEREFORE, conscious decision-making is logically impossible. All decisions are non-consciously made (are just "bodily reactions"); they are made without our knowledge! ...and only 'after' the decision is made can we then consciously realize what decision was made.
Is "the thought that is used in deciding" something like "I can move my right arm or my left arm"? Or do you have something else in mind?
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Thomyum2 »

RJG wrote: June 4th, 2021, 9:42 am Are you referring to "conscious" decisions or "non-conscious" decisions (aka bodily reactions)?
  • Conscious (consciously made) decisions are logically impossible.
    Non-consciously made decisions are possible (...they happen all the time!)
ALL of our decisions are made without our knowledge. The knowing (consciousness) of our decisions is always 'after'-the-fact (after the decision has already been made).

********
To help better understand the logical impossibility of "consciously made decisions", ask yourself the following:
  • 1. Did you consciously (knowingly) choose the thoughts that were used in deciding?
    • If NO, then "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
      If YES, then go to question #2
When you say nonconsciously made decisions, do you mean subconsciously made decisions?

If yes, then "YOU" are still making the decisions - the subconscious is still part of "YOU", isn't it?
If no, then who, or what, is making the decision?
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
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Thomyum2
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Thomyum2 »

popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 8:50 am No, subject and object are not separable, there is a duality there that is mutually dependent. The physical world as object is the fuel your brain runs upon and thus is created the mind. If you take away the object the subject ceases to be, take away the subject and the world as object ceases to be.The fact that they are inseparable means they are one, which means you are one with the earth as object. Your are a functional part of the earth that is known to you on a cognitive level. You are the ears, eyes, and consciousness of the earth.
Popeye, I believe I understand what you are saying here. I think the problem that you're running into in explaining this is you're trying to use a type of language and reasoning that is dualistic in nature to explain a non-dualistic idea - the very act of thinking or talking in terms of subjects and objects, or actions and reactions, is already dualistic.

Have you read Robert Pirsig's work by chance? He explores at length the very idea you are talking about here but it takes him his first full book just to lay out the problem and propose his solution by suggesting an alternative to what he calls the subjective/objective metaphysics or mindset. I think it's really interesting how he resolves this issue. Prisig is maybe looked down upon by academic philosophy because of the informal way he chose to present his ideas, but I've found them to be of value in making sense of the issues around subject/object relationship.
“We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.”
— Epictetus
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RJG
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by RJG »

Terrapin Station wrote:Is "the thought that is used in deciding" something like "I can move my right arm or my left arm"? Or do you have something else in mind?
Yes it could be if that is somehow used in the decision process.

RJG wrote:Are you referring to "conscious decisions or "non-conscious" decisions (aka bodily reactions)?
  • Conscious (consciously made) decisions are logically impossible.
    Non-consciously made decisions are possible (...they happen all the time!)
ALL of our decisions are made without our knowledge. The knowing (consciousness) of our decisions is always 'after'-the-fact (after the decision has already been made).

********
To help better understand the logical impossibility of "consciously made decisions", ask yourself the following:
  • 1. Did you consciously (knowingly) choose the thoughts that were used in deciding?
    • If NO, then "YOU" did NOT decide anything.
      If YES, then go to question #2
Thomyum2 wrote:When you say nonconsciously made decisions, do you mean subconsciously made decisions?
No. The way I see it is that you are either conscious of X, or you are not conscious of X. One or the other.

Thomyum2 wrote:If yes, then "YOU" are still making the decisions - the subconscious is still part of "YOU", isn't it?
If no, then who, or what, is making the decision?
Non-conscious decisions are bodily reactions.
Conscious decisions are logically impossible.

Therefore, ALL our decisions are non-consciously made (are just "bodily reactions"); they are made without our knowledge. The knowing (consciousness) of our decisions is always 'after'-the-fact (after the decision has already been made).
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Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: June 4th, 2021, 2:54 pm
Terrapin Station wrote:Is "the thought that is used in deciding" something like "I can move my right arm or my left arm"? Or do you have something else in mind?
Yes it could be if that is somehow used in the decision process.
Right. So as I asked before, why would it be necessary for you to choose "I can move my right arm or my left arm" in order for you to be able to choose to either move your right arm or left arm?
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