There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
User avatar
RJG
Posts: 2767
Joined: March 28th, 2012, 8:52 pm

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:The nonsense is in claiming to "consciously control" our body. Our body reacts on its own as it has been conditioned to do so. Our consciousness of our bodily actions cannot logically control our bodily actions.
Terrapin Station wrote:You can decide to move your arm, and then move your arm.
If you are referring to "consciously deciding" then this is just an indoctrinated belief, that defies simple logic. You can't logically "consciously decide" anything. You can't do the impossible. -- If you did not choose the thoughts that you do the choosing with, then you chose nothing!

Terrapin Station wrote:You're not just moving your arm out being conditioned to do so, where your intention to move your arm has nothing to do with it.
Again, if you did not "intend your intention" then you did not "consciously cause" your intention that then caused the moving of your arm. -- Our thoughts/feelings/urges/desires are in effect 'given' to us. We don't know these thoughts/feelings/urges/desires until 'after' they pop into our consciousness, not 'before'.

You can only consciously experience intention, not conscious cause it. And if you didn't cause your intention then you didn't cause what your intention caused!


****************
Terrapin Station wrote:One, I'm saying that you can have an intention to move your arm. Do you agree with that?
Yes, we all can experience "intentions" (and other urges/desires/wants), but we cannot "intend (cause) our intentions".

“Although man can do as he wants, he cannot want what he wants” --- Arthur Schopenhauer
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

RJG wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 6:13 pm
If you are referring to "consciously deciding" then this is just an indoctrinated belief, that defies simple logic. You can't logically "consciously decide" anything. You can't do the impossible. -- If you did not choose the thoughts that you do the choosing with, then you chose nothing!
You don't have to choose "I can move my left arm or I can move my right arm" to be able to choose one or the other.
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

One step at a time:

One, I'm saying that you can have an intention to move your arm. Do you agree with that?
[/quote]

Terrapin Station,
Yes, when you have an intention to do anything you must make it your will to do so. The response is a reaction either to your will to move your arm or to a cause that your arm movement would function to change something in your outside world. Reaction must be motivated, that is what makes it reaction.
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

[/quote=You don't have to choose "I can move my left arm or I can move my right arm" to be able to choose one or the other.
[/quote]

Terrapin Station,
Choice is not an issue, we all have choices as to how to react, at least apparently. Again any movement to affect change is motivated, thus it is a reaction.
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

We are getting far from the original argument that subject and object are not separable which means that you and the world are one. The way you are one with the world is your physical being as a reactionary creature makes you an interactive part. Again, if you were not a reactive creature evolution by natural selection would not be possiable. One adapts through reaction to the changing physical world, there is no other way.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Sy Borg »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 5:34 pm
popeye1945 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 4:51 pm There is nothing in the world that has meaning in and of itself but only in relation to a conscious subject but, some might say that we are our own objects in the outside world and so can provide our own meaning. That does seem logical doesn't it, but truth be known it doesn't cut it in the real world, in order to live a meaningful life we need other conscious beings. That you decide to move your arm and then move your arm, is because it is on the outside of you like everything else, the fact that your arm is there in the outside world is the motivation for moving it to react to something.
Why you decided to move your arm (and then did so) is irrelevant to the fact that you're capable of it.
Trivial freedom, of the kind that insects and flatworms enjoy, is not in question, as far as I can tell. Compare that freedom with the freedom of large nations in the last fifty years to eschew fossil fuels and embrace renewables. You would think that the largest societies would be free to do it, but circumstances prevented it, ie. some of the most world's biggest companies produce fossil fuels and they are too powerful to stop, and they are determined to squeeze the last productivity out of their legacy technology. To that end, they have media allies like Rupert Murdoch to pressure governments into spending BILLIONS of taxpayer dollars to prop up these selfish and destructive organisations, while starving renewable energy projects for funds.

There was never any choice here. Societies have been literally powered by fossil fuel companies ever since steam power and horses fell out of favour, so naturally oil and coal companies will be amongst the world's largest, so today's difficult situation with climate change exacerbated by governmental conflicts of interest was always inevitable.

We might be free as individuals, but societies tend to be blindly driven by exigency.
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Sy Borg.
Your post seems terriably off topic. Am I missing something here?
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 356
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by AmericanKestrel »

popeye1945 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 7:49 pm We are getting far from the original argument that subject and object are not separable which means that you and the world are one. The way you are one with the world is your physical being as a reactionary creature makes you an interactive part. Again, if you were not a reactive creature evolution by natural selection would not be possiable. One adapts through reaction to the changing physical world, there is no other way.
If all humans are reactive creatures as you put it, and subject and object are one, then how do you account for the various ways humans act? One jumps into the river to save a life putting his own life at risk, ignoring the evolutionary impulse to survive at all cost. The other merely watches as the person drowns. The third runs to get help.
"The Serpent did not lie."
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

[/quote=If all humans are reactive creatures as you put it, and subject and object are one, then how do you account for the various ways humans act? One jumps into the river to save a life putting his own life at risk, ignoring the evolutionary impulse to survive at all cost. The other merely watches as the person drowns. The third runs to get help.
[/quote]

AmericaKestrel,
I never said people have the same values but in all instances, the persons are reacting to the same stimulus not saving the drowning person is equally a reaction.
User avatar
mystery
Posts: 380
Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
Location: earth

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by mystery »

popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 4:48 am [/quote=If all humans are reactive creatures as you put it, and subject and object are one, then how do you account for the various ways humans act? One jumps into the river to save a life putting his own life at risk, ignoring the evolutionary impulse to survive at all cost. The other merely watches as the person drowns. The third runs to get help.
AmericaKestrel,
I never said people have the same values but in all instances, the persons are reacting to the same stimulus not saving the drowning person is equally a reaction.
[/quote]
Some reactions are instinctive and some have to have a decision. part of some type of training is to teach ourselves how to react instinctively in a planned way. For the drowning person, the same rescuer might react differently depending on who is in the water. Is it a child, is it their child. Is it a woman or a man in the water, do we know them. I am sure that instinctively for mom or dad of a child does not need a decision.

A less dramatic example. broke down on the highway. case one, a young lady, case two a middle-aged fat man. who do you think will find that someone stops to help first.

It can be hard to sort the instinctive reaction vs the decision reaction. Different ppl have different behavior for that. The closer we get to the survival of ourself the closer we get to instinct. Our child in danger usually qualifies for instinct reaction. Unless trained to do it, some guy we have never seen before in the water will go to the decision reaction.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14992
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Sy Borg »

popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 1:06 am Sy Borg.
Your post seems terriably off topic. Am I missing something here?
I wouldn't have thought that speaking about humanity en masse is off topic. Like bees and ants, humans are incomplete in themselves, but intrinsically part of a controlling, pretty well purely reflexive group.

If that angle doesn't suit, no problemo. It's your thread.
popeye1945
Posts: 1110
Joined: October 22nd, 2020, 2:22 am
Favorite Philosopher: Alfred North Whitehead
Location: canada

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by popeye1945 »

Sy Borg wrote: June 4th, 2021, 5:32 am
popeye1945 wrote: June 4th, 2021, 1:06 am Sy Borg.
Your post seems terriably off topic. Am I missing something here?
I wouldn't have thought that speaking about humanity en masse is off topic. Like bees and ants, humans are incomplete in themselves, but intrinsically part of a controlling, pretty well purely reflexive group.

If that angle doesn't suit, no problemo. It's your thread.
Hi Sy Borg,
It is just that the validity of the subject is still in question most of the posters haven't as yet accepted that all organisms are reactive creatures. So, at this point, no one would have the slightest idea how your post comes together around that which is still in question.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

popeye1945 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 7:36 pm Yes, when you have an intention to do anything you must make it your will to do so.
"I intentionally did x" and "I willed x" are saying the same thing. Intention in that sense is another way of talking about will. It's not that you have an intention then you need to do something for it to be something you will.
The response


The first step didn't mention anything about a response. It was just that you can have an intention to do something.

The second step is that if you have an intention to do something, at least in some cases, like moving your arm (ceteris paribus--so that you're not paralyzed, etc.), you can move your arm.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

popeye1945 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 7:42 pm [/quote=You don't have to choose "I can move my left arm or I can move my right arm" to be able to choose one or the other.
Terrapin Station,
Choice is not an issue, we all have choices as to how to react, at least apparently. Again any movement to affect change is motivated, thus it is a reaction.
[/quote]

What made it an issue is that RJG suggested that decisions are not possible.
User avatar
Terrapin Station
Posts: 6227
Joined: August 23rd, 2016, 3:00 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Bertrand Russell and WVO Quine
Location: NYC Man

Re: There Is No Such Thing As Human Action, There Is But Reaction

Post by Terrapin Station »

popeye1945 wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 7:49 pm We are getting far from the original argument that subject and object are not separable which means that you and the world are one. The way you are one with the world is your physical being as a reactionary creature makes you an interactive part. Again, if you were not a reactive creature evolution by natural selection would not be possiable. One adapts through reaction to the changing physical world, there is no other way.
If you can intelligibly talk about subjects and objects, you and the world, they're separable.

They're only not separable if we can't intelligibly talk about two different things there.

Saying that one thing is separable from another doesn't amount to saying that the things do not interact, it doesn't suggest that they're in a vacuum with respect to each other, that they're somehow (incorrigibly) isolated from each other, etc. It just means that it's not just one, logically identical thing, there can be a distinction made somehow.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021