What is the root cause of misogyny?

[Sculptor1]

"Conniving" isn't a skill, and it is in no way admirable.

Conniving - adjective - A conniving person deceives others for their own advantage

Synonyms for "conniving" include "sly", "deceitful", "devious" and "underhand".


It is not privileged information that "conniving" is an insult in English. Most English-speakers know this; those that don't can easily consult a dictionary. Why would you try to twist this insult into a 'compliment' to the 'skill' of women? And why do you leap so readily to the defence of someone who insults women?

The definition of conniving relates to the ability to conspire with others to do something illegal or immoral. It often includes deceit of some kind, but not definitively.

Coinniving is definitely a skill,since it requires a skill set of capabilities that can as easily be described with a positive less perjorative word such collaborating, synergetic, correlative, reciprocal. I am pretty sure that King Charles would have called Cromwell conniving, until his head came off, whilst the majority of Parliementarains were collobrating to overthrow a tyrrant.

One man's conniving bastard is another man's resistance fighter.

The way that paedophiles practice their 'art' - evading detection while gaining access to their victims under the noses of those who would protect them, etc - could, in the same way, be described as a 'skill' . But few people would choose the words art or 'skill' to describe it. The strongly positive and approving connotations of these words does not mesh with the negativity of what is being described.

Skill or not, "conniving" is a wholly negative thing that is not considered in any way admirable. It is scorned and despised by most.

One man's meat is another man's poison. Just because you do not like someone does not mean they are skillless.
Why are you bringing paedophilia into this?

[Leontiskos]

Skill or not, "conniving" is a wholly negative thing that is not considered in any way admirable. It is scorned and despised by most.

That was the point. A root reason women are disliked by both men and women is because they are especially capable of a skill that is widely considered to be undesirable. I gave an argument for why they possess this skill.

You seem to be assuming that misogyny is necessarily irrational. This is an assumption that would need to be defended. When the entire human race throughout all of history exhibits a particular belief, you have to be open to the idea that the belief has some basis in reality. Again, even the early feminists did not dogmatically hold to the belief that misogyny is necessarily irrational. I would say there are aspects of it that are irrational, and others that are not.

...the fact that women are much more conniving than men...

That is a statement that I think you need to justify, if you expect it to be accepted. It looks a lot like misogyny, albeit a pretty mild version of it?

I literally justified the sentence in the very post you quoted. You cut off the justification with ellipses ("...").

[Pattern-chaser]

For me, this topic has become uncomfortably toxic in its direction and intent.

<unsubscribe>

[Leontiskos]

For me, this topic has become uncomfortably toxic in its direction and intent.

Your approach is ad hominem. "Misogyny has nothing to do with female characteristics, and anyone who disagrees with me is toxic and wrong." That's just ad hominem.

[Sy Borg]

If misogyny is rational, based on the special flaws of women, then misandry based on the special flaws of men is also rational.

It seems more rational still to simply accept that males and females are, for the most part, flawed beasts.

A day may come when humans will no longer be tribal, aggressive and biased - but it is not this day! A time when reason, understanding and peace rule our lives - but it is not this day! [apologies to Tolkein]

[Leontiskos]

If misogyny is rational, based on the special flaws of women, then misandry based on the special flaws of men is also rational.

Misogyny and misandry are forms of dislike; flaws are disagreeable; therefore special male or female flaws can rationally justify such forms of dislike (and therefore explain them).

If men are especially violent and disagreeable then that would count as a reason for misandry--a reason to dislike men.

It seems more rational still to simply accept that males and females are, for the most part, flawed beasts.

The claim that misogyny or misandry are never justified goes hand in hand with the idea that there exists no flaw which applies more to men than women or to women than men. I see no reason to accept this. Some flaws really are more common in men or women.

(I realize that this isn't an argument you have presented)

[Sy Borg]

It seems more rational still to simply accept that males and females are, for the most part, flawed beasts.

The claim that misogyny or misandry are never justified goes hand in hand with the idea that there exists no flaw which applies more to men than women or to women than men. I see no reason to accept this. Some flaws really are more common in men or women.

(I realize that this isn't an argument you have presented)

Some flaws are probably more common in a particular gender or the other, but the difference between genders is far less than the difference between them. It seems you are putting a case for personal taste - that some men might especially dislike certain qualities of women. For example, the relative physical weakness of women (and androgynous men) is certainly something that some men despise.

[mystery]

It seems more rational still to simply accept that males and females are, for the most part, flawed beasts.

The claim that misogyny or misandry are never justified goes hand in hand with the idea that there exists no flaw which applies more to men than women or to women than men. I see no reason to accept this. Some flaws really are more common in men or women.

(I realize that this isn't an argument you have presented)

Some flaws are probably more common in a particular gender or the other, but the difference between genders is far less than the difference between them. It seems you are putting a case for personal taste - that some men might especially dislike certain qualities of women. For example, the relative physical weakness of women (and androgynous men) is certainly something that some men despise.

Never met a man that disliked women because of them being physically not as strong. I have met many men that did not want to have a woman on a team or as an activity partner that was not strong enough physically to protect him as an equal and would have the same about a smaller man. In this subtopic, it's just business usually. Who can do what.

For example, a man can carry the woman or another man if needed to safety. In many cases, the woman or small man will not be able to pick up and efficiently carry the man. In this case, he will die, so does not want that situation.

In a romantic context, never ever heard of a man complain that the woman was not strong enough physically.

[AmericanKestrel]

Misogyny is a problem for society because it manifests in action that harms women, actions that deny their right to their own body, their autonomy, tolerates violence to their body, mind, and spirit even in a societies that guarantee human rights.
Misandry has no such manifestation that is sytemic in a society. It is not a problem.
This is not about liking or disliking men or women.
It is about violence towards women that has been systematized.
No such thing about misandry. Misandry is no more than a concept, it does not exist as action.

[Leontiskos]

Misogyny is a problem for society because it manifests in action that harms women, actions that deny their right to their own body, their autonomy, tolerates violence to their body, mind, and spirit even in a societies that guarantee human rights.
Misandry has no such manifestation that is sytemic in a society. It is not a problem.
This is not about liking or disliking men or women.
It is about violence towards women that has been systematized.
No such thing about misandry. Misandry is no more than a concept, it does not exist as action.

I see no reason to believe that dislike towards women is problematic but dislike towards men isn't, nor do I see any reason to believe that problematic forms of misandry do not exist in the culture.

Here is an article from a liberal publication about one problematic manifestation of misandry: "The Problem With a Fight Against Toxic Masculinity."

[Sculptor1]

It is often the case that in understanding a thing it is informative to look at the extreme expression of that thing.
That which motivates the extremities can be used to understand the institutional and quoditian expression of it.

Google the latest Guardian article on the Plymouth shooting. "Incel ideology: a new blurry form of extremism incubated online"
Likewise The Sunday Times. "Plymouth shooting: thousands of boys drawn to ‘incel’ sites urging them to kill women"

The Internet and Social Media are NOT the cause of this, but the facilitator of a natural tendancy.

[Sculptor1]

Yeah, feeling that women are inferior in some ways is a different issue than misogyny.

Ah yes, quite right. In that case, I revise my view on this topic. Misogyny is not at all widespread, although the unreasonable treatment of women is. I would almost place misogyny in the same category as psychopathy.

I missed again; my aim is off. For this topic asks for the cause of misogyny. I think that lies fairly and squarely in the mind of the misogynist. To treat women as inferior beings is far too common over the millennia of our history, but it isn't hatred, I don't think. True hatred is an aberration, for which I can see no other cause or justification.

You can NOT (edit) separate misogyny from hatred, they are both natural tendancies; hatred being just an extreme expression.

[mystery]

Misogyny is a problem for society because it manifests in action that harms women, actions that deny their right to their own body, their autonomy, tolerates violence to their body, mind, and spirit even in a societies that guarantee human rights.
Misandry has no such manifestation that is sytemic in a society. It is not a problem.
This is not about liking or disliking men or women.
It is about violence towards women that has been systematized.
No such thing about misandry. Misandry is no more than a concept, it does not exist as action.

I offer an opposing viewpoint to your summary.

Misandry is a massive problem for society because it manifest in action that harms men, actions that deny their rights of birth to their own mind and soul, tolerates and encourages violence to their mind and spirit even in societies that claim to champion and protect human rights. For some reason the rights of a man are less than a woman.

Misogyny has no such manifestation that is systematic in society. In comparison a much smaller issue.
This is not about liking or disliking women or men.
It is about mental and emotional violence towards men that that has been systematized.
No such thing about Misogyny. Misogyny is no more than a tool and word used by some to gather support for competition as they can not win without manipulation.

One of the most ground breaking and enlightened works about this is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Manipulated_Man
This book explains in detail the situation. Difficult to read because it presents a viewpoint that has been suppressed for most ppl. This was written by a woman as only a woman would know the detail that is included about women.

I agree with you that these things; hate of the other type is something that should be improved. It will take open minds to solve these very ancient issues. The issues predictably trigger action/response that makes the issues worse.

[Pattern-chaser]

You can separate misogyny from hatred, they are both natural tendancies; hatred being just an extreme expression.

I'm fairly sure that misogyny is defined as hatred[/u] of women.

I have unsubscribed from this topic, as it has turned into a talking-shop for those who would minimise, or even justify, the actions of misogynists.

[Pattern-chaser]

Apologies for the screwed-up highlighting:

You can separate misogyny from hatred, they are both natural tendancies; hatred being just an extreme expression.

I'm fairly sure that misogyny is defined as hatred of women.

I have unsubscribed from this topic, as it has turned into a talking-shop for those who would minimise, or even justify, the actions of misogynists.