What is the root cause of misogyny?

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AmericanKestrel
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

Astro Cat wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 8:18 am
Wizard22 wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 7:21 am "Skyrocketed" from 1/100th to 1/10th?

It's still a small minority, don't stretch the facts.
Still not at a keyboard, but for instance this 2020 paper states
“Leinung et al” wrote: Consistent with many reports, we are seeing an increasing number of gender dysphoric individuals seeking hormonal therapy. The age at initiation has been dropping over the past 25 years, and we have seen a steady increase in the number of FTM such that the incidence now equals that of MTF. Possible reasons for these changes are discussed.
Emphasis added.

I have a lot to say about your ideas about privilege, but it will have to wait until likely Monday. I’m needing to sleep and leaving town when I wake up.
Thank you for the link and looking forward to your comments.
Linking gender dysphoria to sexism and misogyny has no bearing to reality. The very idea of women privilege is cynical and misogyny on its own, not to mention the bias in attributing motives to transgenders.
"The Serpent did not lie."
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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The root cause of misogyny is blatantly obvious - sexual rejection. End of story. Men who fail to get their ends in when they feel they desperately need to, will become frustrated and angry. Enough rejections can easily lead a man to hate women. It happens all the time.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Sy Borg wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 8:55 pm The root cause of misogyny is blatantly obvious - sexual rejection. End of story. Men who fail to get their ends in when they feel they desperately need to, will become frustrated and angry. Enough rejections can easily lead a man to hate women. It happens all the time.
I disagree that it is only this. There are many women with internalized misogyny that aren’t gay.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Astro Cat wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 12:36 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 8:55 pm The root cause of misogyny is blatantly obvious - sexual rejection. End of story. Men who fail to get their ends in when they feel they desperately need to, will become frustrated and angry. Enough rejections can easily lead a man to hate women. It happens all the time.
I disagree that it is only this. There are many women with internalized misogyny that aren’t gay.
Or is it competitiveness?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Sy Borg wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 8:55 pm The root cause of misogyny is blatantly obvious - sexual rejection. End of story. Men who fail to get their ends in when they feel they desperately need to, will become frustrated and angry. Enough rejections can easily lead a man to hate women. It happens all the time.
Hating women is one thing, just hate. The power to act upon that hate, such as forced birthing, is misogyny, it strips female body of humanity.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Astro Cat wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 12:36 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 8:55 pm The root cause of misogyny is blatantly obvious - sexual rejection. End of story. Men who fail to get their ends in when they feel they desperately need to, will become frustrated and angry. Enough rejections can easily lead a man to hate women. It happens all the time.
I disagree that it is only this. There are many women with internalized misogyny that aren’t gay.
Self-hate is not the same as misogyny. Self-hate is a malady that stems from invalidation and absence of self worth due to experiencing misogyny. It will get expressed ways that harmful ways. Misogyny has far reaching effect on the health of the community. Just like racism or any other kind of hate does.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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There is no single "root cause" for any phenomenon.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 12:13 pm
Sy Borg wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 8:55 pm The root cause of misogyny is blatantly obvious - sexual rejection. End of story. Men who fail to get their ends in when they feel they desperately need to, will become frustrated and angry. Enough rejections can easily lead a man to hate women. It happens all the time.
Hating women is one thing, just hate. The power to act upon that hate, such as forced birthing, is misogyny, it strips female body of humanity.
I think of misogyny, misandry, racism, transphobia, animal hatred as more or less the same thing. Fear that breeds hate. It might be fear of not getting laid and being considered a loser. It might be fear of being outshone by younger, prettier and better educated peers. It might be fear of the unknown, of emasculation, of losing power, of germs or unpredictability.

The root in each category of hatefulness is fear and, from that basis, as Sculptor noted, the reasons diverge.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Sy Borg wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 4:20 pm
AmericanKestrel wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 12:13 pm
Sy Borg wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 8:55 pm The root cause of misogyny is blatantly obvious - sexual rejection. End of story. Men who fail to get their ends in when they feel they desperately need to, will become frustrated and angry. Enough rejections can easily lead a man to hate women. It happens all the time.
Hating women is one thing, just hate. The power to act upon that hate, such as forced birthing, is misogyny, it strips female body of humanity.
I think of misogyny, misandry, racism, transphobia, animal hatred as more or less the same thing. Fear that breeds hate. It might be fear of not getting laid and being considered a loser. It might be fear of being outshone by younger, prettier and better educated peers. It might be fear of the unknown, of emasculation, of losing power, of germs or unpredictability.

The root in each category of hatefulness is fear and, from that basis, as Sculptor noted, the reasons diverge.
I do believe fear is the root cause of hate. It is just not easily recognizable as fear.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Sy Borg wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 2:49 am
Astro Cat wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 12:36 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 8:55 pm The root cause of misogyny is blatantly obvious - sexual rejection. End of story. Men who fail to get their ends in when they feel they desperately need to, will become frustrated and angry. Enough rejections can easily lead a man to hate women. It happens all the time.
I disagree that it is only this. There are many women with internalized misogyny that aren’t gay.
Or is it competitiveness?
I'm not sure it's that, either.

I'm sure that some misogyny is resentment over rejection, some of it is competitiveness, etc., but I think it's more likely that misogyny stems from cultural stereotypes over what femininity is.

Masculinity is associated with being rational for instance, while femininity is associated with being irrationally emotional. If you pull up a list comparing masculine and feminine traits, most masculine traits are positive with a few exceptions like being "cold" or "cruel"; but for the most part "negative" masculine traits remind me of those awkward interview questions like "what is your greatest weakness?" where the respondee supplies "weaknesses" that are actually strengths (e.g., "I work too hard"). A person with all of the stereotypical masculine traits is a sharp thinker, a calm reasoner, a no-BS, straight-to-the-point person that projects strength and mastery.

Compare that to the list of traits associated with femininity, and you would get a witless, emotional, gossiping, unfocused wreck of a person that's too delicate a flower to do anything not submissively passive.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Wizard22 wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 5:46 am So now, with this data, evidence, and facts in mind....it makes sense that male-to-female Transexual conversion is immensely more popular than female-to-male.

Young males want Female Privilege, but young females do not want "Male Privilege", because the latter is evidently, and obviously, a myth.
Ok, I'm finally at a keyboard. First, just a reminder that this paper disputes that MTF is "immensely more popular" than FTM transitions today (they are about equal). It is true that for a long while MTF transitions were much more popular though, so I will note that you were partially correct at least.

What I'm more concerned about here is this notion of "male privilege" and "female privilege" you have. I don't wish to dispute that either exist because I agree that they do. What I will dispute is your assertion that male privilege is a "myth" or that trans people make decisions to transition based on wanting gendered privilege.

The main male privilege is essentially the absence of suffering systemic misogyny. Women are promoted less often even when their work ethic matches men (in STEM, men are also 1.5 times more likely to get hired than equally qualified women in the first place*). Men are three times more likely to interrupt a woman than another man in workplace or school environments.

(* -- also consider that in STEM, people have handed out résumés that are exactly the same in every respect except some have male-sounding names and some have female-sounding names. In all studies, the male candidates were found to be exceptionally more competent than the female candidates despite the only difference being whether their name sounded like a man's name or not).

If people are told about a CEO named Morgan that "tends to offer their opinion" and "talks more than most CEOs," it turns out that their opinion of this hypothetical CEO depends on whether they were presented as Mr. Morgan or Ms. Morgan. Despite having the exact same description and résumé, people rated Mr. Morgan as being more competent than other CEOs while Ms. Morgan was rated less competent.

A woman's assertiveness in the workplace is more likely to be [url=http://web.stanford.edu/group/ipc/pubs/2005Choi.pdf]interpreted as anger[/url] rather than strength (an assumption of incompetence: an assertive woman is "moody" or "bossy" rather than competent), and angry women (whether actually angry or not) are perceived as more incompetent than angry men under the same circumstances. Women's anger (again, real or not) is stereotyped as being internalized (e.g., "she's just a moody woman, that's the way that she is") whereas men's anger is stereotyped as external ("he's dealing with a lot that's happening to him"). Compared to male supervisors and bosses, people remember negative traits and forget positive traits more often if the supervisor in question is a woman.

Since women are stereotyped as nurturers, they are assumed to be less competent than men at leadership positions because it's assumed women can't make tough choices. Taken with the paragraph above, this leads to a catch-22 whereby women seek to avoid being perceived as angry, which makes them appear stereotypically passive and unsuitable for leadership. This is even more problematic because seeking to avoid stereotypes causes stereotype backlash whereby they are simply stereotyped more.

66% of women have reported feeling their voices are devalued at work, and 41% have experienced a sexist workplace environment. When women leave the workforce (particularly STEM), many report psychosocial gendered reasons (e.g., systemic misogyny) for leaving. 4 in 10 drop out due to having to juggle home life with their professional life, which brings me to the next major subject point.

Women face a lot more gendered emotional and cognitive labor expectations than men do. Women are expected to provide emotional and cognitive support at work as unpaid, unrecognized labor; while women are still expected to take the brunt of unpaid emotional and cognitive work at home. This isn't because they want to, either (we don't): it's more gendered cultural expectations.

Now, of course men have to deal with some systemic misandry as well. Systemic misandry isn't good any more than systemic misogyny is good. We can agree that systemic misandry should be combatted. What we won't agree on is that men don't have privilege. They absolutely do. To have privilege is not an accusation of specific wrongdoing, it just means to not have to deal with systemic problems that someone else would have to deal with.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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As an aside (and sorry for the politics, for the record I'm not particularly fond of any of the people I'm about to mention), I was acutely aware during the US presidential debates of the gendered politics when Trump was speaking over Clinton and she had to basically sit there and take it because she knew what would happen if she responded to it (her perceived competency would plummet as a "moody woman"), whereas Biden [in?]famously was able to respond "would you shut up man?"
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Astro Cat wrote: July 25th, 2022, 1:26 pm
Sy Borg wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 2:49 am
Astro Cat wrote: July 23rd, 2022, 12:36 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 22nd, 2022, 8:55 pm The root cause of misogyny is blatantly obvious - sexual rejection. End of story. Men who fail to get their ends in when they feel they desperately need to, will become frustrated and angry. Enough rejections can easily lead a man to hate women. It happens all the time.
I disagree that it is only this. There are many women with internalized misogyny that aren’t gay.
Or is it competitiveness?
I'm not sure it's that, either.

I'm sure that some misogyny is resentment over rejection, some of it is competitiveness, etc., but I think it's more likely that misogyny stems from cultural stereotypes over what femininity is.

Masculinity is associated with being rational for instance, while femininity is associated with being irrationally emotional. If you pull up a list comparing masculine and feminine traits, most masculine traits are positive with a few exceptions like being "cold" or "cruel"; but for the most part "negative" masculine traits remind me of those awkward interview questions like "what is your greatest weakness?" where the respondee supplies "weaknesses" that are actually strengths (e.g., "I work too hard"). A person with all of the stereotypical masculine traits is a sharp thinker, a calm reasoner, a no-BS, straight-to-the-point person that projects strength and mastery.

Compare that to the list of traits associated with femininity, and you would get a witless, emotional, gossiping, unfocused wreck of a person that's too delicate a flower to do anything not submissively passive.
Similar can be said of any group where one has long been dominant with the other under their control. Men/women. Bosses/workers. White/blacks. Humans/animals. If you are dominant, you are naturally going to be forthright and fearless, if you are controlled, you will have complaints about your treatment, fewer opportunities to express yourself and you will need to operate covertly.



too, although I think frustration and competitiveness are the most usual drivers of hatred and hostility to.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Astro Cat wrote: July 25th, 2022, 1:26 pm

I'm not sure it's that, either.

I'm sure that some misogyny is resentment over rejection, some of it is competitiveness, etc., but I think it's more likely that misogyny stems from cultural stereotypes over what femininity is.

Masculinity is associated with being rational for instance, while femininity is associated with being irrationally emotional. If you pull up a list comparing masculine and feminine traits, most masculine traits are positive with a few exceptions like being "cold" or "cruel"; but for the most part "negative" masculine traits remind me of those awkward interview questions like "what is your greatest weakness?" where the respondee supplies "weaknesses" that are actually strengths (e.g., "I work too hard"). A person with all of the stereotypical masculine traits is a sharp thinker, a calm reasoner, a no-BS, straight-to-the-point person that projects strength and mastery.

Compare that to the list of traits associated with femininity, and you would get a witless, emotional, gossiping, unfocused wreck of a person that's too delicate a flower to do anything not submissively passive.
But what came first? Misogyny or stereotypes?
'Is femininity the same as being a woman or is it a taint imposed on women by a misogynistic society?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Astro Cat wrote: July 25th, 2022, 2:26 pm As an aside (and sorry for the politics, for the record I'm not particularly fond of any of the people I'm about to mention), I was acutely aware during the US presidential debates of the gendered politics when Trump was speaking over Clinton and she had to basically sit there and take it because she knew what would happen if she responded to it (her perceived competency would plummet as a "moody woman"), whereas Biden [in?]famously was able to respond "would you shut up man?"
But the was bad judgement call on the part of Clintom to has not managed that situation. She has made several bad judgements. Warren, AOC, or even Klobuchar might have responded differently. Clinton did not have to sit there and take it. She chose to.
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