There are too many powerful bad actors who benefit from the conflict, that, the news media lead by Murdoch.mystery wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 8:19 pmI respect that opinion but disagree, perhaps as I learn more and am older I will follow that. I like popcorn so all is not lost.Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 5:52 pmIs there a solution?mystery wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 7:50 amvary basic, and correct. the question can be, how to achieve that solution in a non-violent way.Sy Borg wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 3:05 am Another angle: by the law of averages, some people - men and women - will like women in general less than most. Others will like women more than most.
Some people don't like oysters, others don't like broccoli. Some like Megadeth and some like Kenny G, while others hate them. Some like to believe in things they can't know more than others. Tastes vary - in all areas of life.
It can be easy to pathologise others' peccadilloes, although logically men in happy heterosexual relationships will tend to have, on average, fewer misogynists amongst their ranks than single men who feel rejected by women. There's not much wrong with many of "the rejected" that sated sexuality wouldn't fix IMO.
Given that societies cannot convince people that an extremely heavily inspected and audited election was not real - based only on one man's obviously premeditated claims - there is no hope of dealing effectively with the complexity of gender-based tensions. All that's left is to grab the popcorn and watch the latest instalment of the Punch and Judy Show.
What is the root cause of misogyny?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
mystery wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 8:28 pmWomen do not think of themselves as not empowered. They want the same things men want - love, security, respect. It is those men who think violence is power and believe they are entitled to sex and mistake lust for love that are a menace to the society and to women in particular.
I mostly agree with your analysis, but always disagree so far with the conclusions.
What are the components of love, describe it in detail if you will? Security and respect I think we are in sync on.
I don't know any men that think they are entitled to sex, they all do WANT sex if they are healthy. What do you mean by entitled?
[/quote]
Love is what love does. You know when you are loved and know what love feels like when you love. Love is a verb. It is purely voluntary and no way to buy it anywhere. Even if we set aside love, safety and respect are a good enough base for a healthy relationship. Men and women both want the same thing.
Entitled:
That is the reason behind the anger and hate SOME men feel when a women declines to have sex with them. They do not believe women have the right not have to comply every time they feel the urge. They do not believe women are individuals who have a right to their own self and body. They are the misogynists.feeling that you have the right to do or have what you want without having to work for it or deserve it, just because of who you are:
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 11:16 am Says who? This is a significant and substantive statement; on what do you base it?
This is an old wives tale, I think. I have never seen or heard anything with any apparent authority saying so. No evidence, no testimony from people who might be expected to know what they're talking about, nothing. Do you know otherwise?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
We must be living on two different planets then.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 19th, 2021, 11:54 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 11:16 am Says who? This is a significant and substantive statement; on what do you base it?This is an old wives tale, I think. I have never seen or heard anything with any apparent authority saying so. No evidence, no testimony from people who might be expected to know what they're talking about, nothing. Do you know otherwise?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Yes, it's a myth. Mentally, there's more difference within the genders than between them.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 19th, 2021, 11:54 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 11:16 am Says who? This is a significant and substantive statement; on what do you base it?This is an old wives tale, I think. I have never seen or heard anything with any apparent authority saying so. No evidence, no testimony from people who might be expected to know what they're talking about, nothing. Do you know otherwise?
https://www.apa.org/research/action/difference
Psychologist Janet Shibley Hyde, PhD, of the University of Wisconsin in Madison, discovered that males and females from childhood to adulthood are more alike than different on most psychological variables, resulting in what she calls a gender similarities hypothesis. Using meta-analytical techniques that revolutionized the study of gender differences starting in the 1980s, she analyzed how prior research assessed the impact of gender on many psychological traits and abilities, including cognitive abilities, verbal and nonverbal communication, aggression, leadership, self-esteem, moral reasoning and motor behaviors.
Hyde observed that across the dozens of studies, consistent with the gender similarities hypothesis, gender differences had either no or a very small effect on most of the psychological variables examined. Only a few main differences appeared: Compared with women, men could throw farther, were more physically aggressive, masturbated more, and held more positive attitudes about sex in uncommitted relationships.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
It's like saying I am probably fatter than you because I am from Florida and you are from Nebraska. For 1,000 people combined, it should be true, but not to any material extent. Between just you and me, it could go either way.
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring ... erent.html
TLDR
Bigger imaging studies and imaginative animal research now in the works promise to reveal much more about humanity’s inherent — although by no means uniform, and often not substantial — sex-associated cognitive differences and vulnerability to diseases.
Trying to assign exact percentages to the relative contributions of “culture” versus “biology” to the behavior of free-living human individuals in a complex social environment is tough at best. Halpern offers a succinct assessment: “The role of culture is not zero. The role of biology is not zero.”
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
My understanding is that love is a feeling and an action. We can feel loved or we can give love. There is really biology underneath the feelings that can be targeted by ppl that understand it. Politicians on a wide scale understand this, people that are successful socially also understand it. The actions and events that trigger the chemicals that fuel the feeling of love are what we are thinking about. I have seen first hand more than once when some friend's mate (wife) will decide to target another man and not keep her agreement; it happens often. In some cases that man will move to hate women when he learns. In most of the cases, his only crime was being boring. Other cases I see are often geeky men that are not masculine, women will be friends with them but not interested physically. After many rejections, the men become sour and blame the women for being unfair and move to hate.AmericanKestrel wrote: ↑July 19th, 2021, 11:02 amLove is what love does. You know when you are loved and know what love feels like when you love. Love is a verb. It is purely voluntary and no way to buy it anywhere. Even if we set aside love, safety and respect are a good enough base for a healthy relationship. Men and women both want the same thing.mystery wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 8:28 pmAmericanKestrel wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 3:09 pm
Women do not think of themselves as not empowered. They want the same things men want - love, security, respect. It is those men who think violence is power and believe they are entitled to sex and mistake lust for love that are a menace to the society and to women in particular.
I mostly agree with your analysis, but always disagree so far with the conclusions.
What are the components of love, describe it in detail if you will? Security and respect I think we are in sync on.
I don't know any men that think they are entitled to sex, they all do WANT sex if they are healthy. What do you mean by entitled?
Entitled:That is the reason behind the anger and hate SOME men feel when a women declines to have sex with them. They do not believe women have the right not have to comply every time they feel the urge. They do not believe women are individuals who have a right to their own self and body. They are the misogynists.feeling that you have the right to do or have what you want without having to work for it or deserve it, just because of who you are:
When you tell that men feel anger if the woman does not comply with them, do you mean just random men or one that is in a relationship with the woman? I don't think any men actually expect all random women to submit, they wish but know better. Most men do not just approach random women and ask for sex. Instead they ask for time and attention in exchange for the same. In most cases, the man does wish it will lead to sex, and in some cases the same for the women. For the man to develop hate usually it is from a previously trusted mate who decides to pull away for whatever reasons. That is end or renegotiate the agreement.
Women are definitely individuals show have a right to their own self and body and also to keep any promise or agreement they make, exactly the same as men should. In times past all around the world, we had slavery, and others did own the body of another. We don't have that today in the context of this topic I think. I guess in ancient Rome it was common for the important women to keep male servants to service them if they wished and I think wealthy men did the same with female slaves. None of that was from hate, it was from greed.
Greed and hate are different.
Perhaps the word misogyny gets shifted in meaning because it gets traction.
Why do you think a healthy baby boy would grow up to be like that?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 11:16 am Says who? This is a significant and substantive statement; on what do you base it?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 19th, 2021, 11:54 am This is an old wives tale, I think. I have never seen or heard anything with any apparent authority saying so. No evidence, no testimony from people who might be expected to know what they're talking about, nothing. Do you know otherwise?
I ask again: Do you know otherwise? Do you know of evidence, testimony from people who might be expected to know what they're talking about, anything? Or must we rely on hearsay?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
to arrive at the root cause we either can guess or follow the cause chain. I am attempting to follow the chain but getting resistance on the first link because some ppl can not accept that women have anything at all to do with some men not liking them. the first step in the chain is rejection from women. chase, I tell over and over that it is the right thing for women to do that but some still think that it is an attack on women to point out that they reject and that the rejection has an impact on the man.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 9:20 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 16th, 2021, 8:22 amI haven't read every word of every post in this topic, but I'm pretty sure that no-one has suggested otherwise. Straw man.
<yawn> If this was so, all men who have been rejected would be misogynists, and they're not. The 'cause' here is the aberrant response of the misogynist to rejection. Rejection, of itself, does not cause hate in normal men. This can be confirmed empirically, it isn't just my opinion. Go on, do it. Confirm that what I have said is true by examining the Real World. Then retract this unjustified myth you keep on repeating, that rejection causes misogyny; it doesn't.As expected, you do not - cannot? - answer this actual real-life evidence. All you do is to re-assert your evidence-free opinion.
You do not offer a solution to anything, only your unjustified opinions.
Your reasoning begins at the end of the chain, instead of the beginning. The topic asks us for the cause - the root cause - of misogyny. You respond by citing a trigger that might provoke a hateful reaction from a man who is already suffering from misogyny.
As most men are not misogynists, nor do they become misogynists, common sense would direct us to the mind of the misogynist in our search for a cause.
Examining the hateful outbursts of a misogynist is far too late - he is already suffering from misogyny. Whatever the cause is, it has already taken effect, and the man is already a misogynist. The topic does not ask us to look out for expressions of misogyny, but for a "root cause". How does a man come to be a misogynist? You claim to offer "a solution", but I see nothing but unsubstantiated hearsay.
it's a fun topic, you know I have seen definitions of misogyny so general that it includes even disagreement with women. so if you disagree with a woman you must be a misogynist.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 9:20 am Examining the hateful outbursts of a misogynist is far too late - he is already suffering from misogyny. Whatever the cause is, it has already taken effect, and the man is already a misogynist. The topic does not ask us to look out for expressions of misogyny, but for a "root cause". How does a man come to be a misogynist? You claim to offer "a solution", but I see nothing but unsubstantiated hearsay.
No, it's not the "first link", it's the last. That's my point. You're looking at the end of the chain when common sense (if nothing else) would seem to indicate that we should be looking at the start of the chain, which is where the "root cause" of misogyny will most likely be found.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
how we do that is to track it back. find the defect we don't like and track the cause chain and then fix the bug.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 20th, 2021, 6:31 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 9:20 am Examining the hateful outbursts of a misogynist is far too late - he is already suffering from misogyny. Whatever the cause is, it has already taken effect, and the man is already a misogynist. The topic does not ask us to look out for expressions of misogyny, but for a "root cause". How does a man come to be a misogynist? You claim to offer "a solution", but I see nothing but unsubstantiated hearsay.No, it's not the "first link", it's the last. That's my point. You're looking at the end of the chain when common sense (if nothing else) would seem to indicate that we should be looking at the start of the chain, which is where the "root cause" of misogyny will most likely be found.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 9:20 am Examining the hateful outbursts of a misogynist is far too late - he is already suffering from misogyny. Whatever the cause is, it has already taken effect, and the man is already a misogynist. The topic does not ask us to look out for expressions of misogyny, but for a "root cause". How does a man come to be a misogynist? You claim to offer "a solution", but I see nothing but unsubstantiated hearsay.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 20th, 2021, 6:31 am No, it's not the "first link", it's the last. That's my point. You're looking at the end of the chain when common sense (if nothing else) would seem to indicate that we should be looking at the start of the chain, which is where the "root cause" of misogyny will most likely be found.
OK: the "defect we don't like" is any/all expressions of hatred toward women. [Clarification: Not indifference or mild dislike, but actual hatred.] And so we look at the misogynist. Not at the expression of hatred, that's the end of the chain. We need to face in the opposite direction, and try to discover what led to this aberrant behaviour, that most men do not exhibit or share. The "root cause" we seek begins, and probably ends too, in the mind of the misogynist.
I think it is a mistake to blithely refer to fixing "the bug", as though a person can be debugged like a computer program can. A person is not a program.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
I used that analogy with you because I remember you know about those computer things. Actually, humans, in general, do follow some predictable behaviors that can be debugged. Knowing how some of those work is part of what this is about. Much of the details become obfuscated on purpose for reasons.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 20th, 2021, 8:11 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 9:20 am Examining the hateful outbursts of a misogynist is far too late - he is already suffering from misogyny. Whatever the cause is, it has already taken effect, and the man is already a misogynist. The topic does not ask us to look out for expressions of misogyny, but for a "root cause". How does a man come to be a misogynist? You claim to offer "a solution", but I see nothing but unsubstantiated hearsay.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 20th, 2021, 6:31 am No, it's not the "first link", it's the last. That's my point. You're looking at the end of the chain when common sense (if nothing else) would seem to indicate that we should be looking at the start of the chain, which is where the "root cause" of misogyny will most likely be found.OK: the "defect we don't like" is any/all expressions of hatred toward women. [Clarification: Not indifference or mild dislike, but actual hatred.] And so we look at the misogynist. Not at the expression of hatred, that's the end of the chain. We need to face in the opposite direction, and try to discover what led to this aberrant behaviour, that most men do not exhibit or share. The "root cause" we seek begins, and probably ends too, in the mind of the misogynist.
I think it is a mistake to blithely refer to fixing "the bug", as though a person can be debugged like a computer program can. A person is not a program.
We will not get all of it, because some of the cases do have other causes but only small percentages. We can get a large share.
You are also right that it all starts and ends in the mind of the man. We can either trap and punish him or even just kill him to remove the problem or we can understand/debug it and make a patch or alter his thinking. To be able to do the latter we must know how the program flows and what are most of the variables. At the same time, we must be willing to break through any artificial obfuscation. In this subject a key point is to understand how the female decides and for what reasons; the real ones, not the sweet-sounding ones. Females may fight on this one because admitting the truth of how the selections happen is interesting and also requires deep self-analysis of the same. It's important to remember it's not about fault it's about how and why.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
What's the point of answering. Imo if you are asking this, it can only mean that throughout your life you have completely missed what neurotypical men are saying about neurotypical women.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 20th, 2021, 5:16 amPattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 18th, 2021, 11:16 am Says who? This is a significant and substantive statement; on what do you base it?Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑July 19th, 2021, 11:54 am This is an old wives tale, I think. I have never seen or heard anything with any apparent authority saying so. No evidence, no testimony from people who might be expected to know what they're talking about, nothing. Do you know otherwise?I ask again: Do you know otherwise? Do you know of evidence, testimony from people who might be expected to know what they're talking about, anything? Or must we rely on hearsay?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?
No, it absolutely isn't. You have confirmed many times in this lengthy discussion that the misogyny lies with the man, and that a woman is free to decline sexual congress with any partner, for any reason, without any form of blame or reproach. Therefore, it specifically does not matter why she decided as she did. We have already determined that her reason(s) are irrelevant. It could be that her reasons are unclear or unknown, even to her, but that's OK too. Only the misogyny, in which she has no part (other than as a victim), is relevant.
In this subject, the only key point is to understand how the man became a misogynist, and for what reasons. That's what the topic asks for, and that's the only course that might lead to any form of remedy or cure for misogyny.
N.B. the misogynistic man cannot sidestep his condition by somehow learning to be more attractive to women, so that he will not be rejected, and his subsequent outpouring of hatred would be avoided. He must learn not to hate women in the first place, or forever avoid the fairer sex, for their protection.
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