What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: August 5th, 2021, 6:07 pm Pattern-c, I find that prejudice comes in bundles. So you will see hatred of women goes with hatred of gays, and these tend to go with racism.

The common link is a hatred of weakness and worship of strength. What do we hate most? That which lies within ourselves. So there are millions of insecure men out there - insecure in their strength as men, perhaps worried about being seen as Beta males or gay. Their problem is that they lack the strength or ability to muster the desired level of male display behaviour physically or vocationally. So they engage in exaggerated macho posturing in rhetoric. In some social animals, gangs of beta males can be pretty dangerous.

Ultimately, men who hate women hate the weakness they perceive within themselves, often their inability to attract mates.
Nicely put. 👍


Randomly, I found another psychology article yesterday, one that is more specific to this topic.
Vulnerable narcissists are withdrawn, neurotic and insecure. They tend to have low self-esteem, be hypersensitive and feel anxious and depressed. [They] are selfish, feel entitled to special treatment and privileges and relate to others in antagonistic ways.
You can find the full article here.

If I understand it correctly, it offers a possible answer to the question this topic asks: what is the root cause of misogyny? The answer is (perhaps) that misogyny is an outward expression of vulnerable narcissism. The root cause of misogyny is vulnerable narcissism.

What do you think?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 6th, 2021, 8:45 am
Sy Borg wrote: August 5th, 2021, 6:07 pm Pattern-c, I find that prejudice comes in bundles. So you will see hatred of women goes with hatred of gays, and these tend to go with racism.

The common link is a hatred of weakness and worship of strength. What do we hate most? That which lies within ourselves. So there are millions of insecure men out there - insecure in their strength as men, perhaps worried about being seen as Beta males or gay. Their problem is that they lack the strength or ability to muster the desired level of male display behaviour physically or vocationally. So they engage in exaggerated macho posturing in rhetoric. In some social animals, gangs of beta males can be pretty dangerous.

Ultimately, men who hate women hate the weakness they perceive within themselves, often their inability to attract mates.
Nicely put. 👍


Randomly, I found another psychology article yesterday, one that is more specific to this topic.
Vulnerable narcissists are withdrawn, neurotic and insecure. They tend to have low self-esteem, be hypersensitive and feel anxious and depressed. [They] are selfish, feel entitled to special treatment and privileges and relate to others in antagonistic ways.
You can find the full article here.

If I understand it correctly, it offers a possible answer to the question this topic asks: what is the root cause of misogyny? The answer is (perhaps) that misogyny is an outward expression of vulnerable narcissism. The root cause of misogyny is vulnerable narcissism.

What do you think?
Sounds completely logical to me.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by Leontiskos »

AmericanKestrel wrote: May 27th, 2021, 1:06 pmA few things I can think of that spurs this hatred:
Vagina/uterus envy.
They are property that can be stolen, elope, and thus a liability.
They can seduce one to lose his senses.
Men are naturally gay, and thus women are competition.
We hate that which we fear. What is the cause of fear?
What do you think?
The blind spot in threads such as these is the fact that women are often as misogynistic as men, and sometimes more so. Studies show that the majority of women prefer to work with men and prefer the company of men. Women are often extremely distrustful of other women, much more so than they are distrustful of men. Even the founder of Feminism, Simone de Beauvoir, has often been accused of unconscious misogyny, in part because she held that many of women's problems were their own fault.

The basic assumption that misogyny is an exclusively male characteristic turns out to be false. Since all of these proposed causes make that false assumption I am led to believe that they are relatively superficial.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

Leontiskos wrote: August 7th, 2021, 2:02 am
AmericanKestrel wrote: May 27th, 2021, 1:06 pmA few things I can think of that spurs this hatred:
Vagina/uterus envy.
They are property that can be stolen, elope, and thus a liability.
They can seduce one to lose his senses.
Men are naturally gay, and thus women are competition.
We hate that which we fear. What is the cause of fear?
What do you think?
The blind spot in threads such as these is the fact that women are often as misogynistic as men, and sometimes more so. Studies show that the majority of women prefer to work with men and prefer the company of men. Women are often extremely distrustful of other women, much more so than they are distrustful of men. Even the founder of Feminism, Simone de Beauvoir, has often been accused of unconscious misogyny, in part because she held that many of women's problems were their own fault.

The basic assumption that misogyny is an exclusively male characteristic turns out to be false. Since all of these proposed causes make that false assumption I am led to believe that they are relatively superficial.
This is true, but why...

What I have seen is there is a good-sized section of women that relate very well with men in that they charm them. The men clearly treat the women differently than they do other men. They treat the women better and softer. Women are more likely to get any request or accommodation from men than from most women due to the sexual tension thing... The real hate starts between women when one is able to get more male attention than the other or more attention from a specific male. This again is root rejection. Successful sales managers know this stuff inside out.

The women that hate other women, it is also a function of rejection. The other women reject the charm of a fellow woman where a man will react in predictable ways.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 6th, 2021, 8:45 am
Sy Borg wrote: August 5th, 2021, 6:07 pm Pattern-c, I find that prejudice comes in bundles. So you will see hatred of women goes with hatred of gays, and these tend to go with racism.

The common link is a hatred of weakness and worship of strength. What do we hate most? That which lies within ourselves. So there are millions of insecure men out there - insecure in their strength as men, perhaps worried about being seen as Beta males or gay. Their problem is that they lack the strength or ability to muster the desired level of male display behaviour physically or vocationally. So they engage in exaggerated macho posturing in rhetoric. In some social animals, gangs of beta males can be pretty dangerous.

Ultimately, men who hate women hate the weakness they perceive within themselves, often their inability to attract mates.
Nicely put. 👍


Randomly, I found another psychology article yesterday, one that is more specific to this topic.
Vulnerable narcissists are withdrawn, neurotic and insecure. They tend to have low self-esteem, be hypersensitive and feel anxious and depressed. [They] are selfish, feel entitled to special treatment and privileges and relate to others in antagonistic ways.
You can find the full article here.

If I understand it correctly, it offers a possible answer to the question this topic asks: what is the root cause of misogyny? The answer is (perhaps) that misogyny is an outward expression of vulnerable narcissism. The root cause of misogyny is vulnerable narcissism.

What do you think?
some cases can be like this, most are from rejection.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Leontiskos wrote: August 7th, 2021, 2:02 am The blind spot in threads such as these is the fact that women are often as misogynistic as men, and sometimes more so. Studies show that the majority of women prefer to work with men and prefer the company of men. Women are often extremely distrustful of other women, much more so than they are distrustful of men. Even the founder of Feminism, Simone de Beauvoir, has often been accused of unconscious misogyny, in part because she held that many of women's problems were their own fault.

The basic assumption that misogyny is an exclusively male characteristic turns out to be false. Since all of these proposed causes make that false assumption I am led to believe that they are relatively superficial.
And yet there are far more male misogynists than there are female misogynists. What you have said doesn't take away from this. It does not excuse male misogyny to say that some women exhibit misogyny too.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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mystery wrote: August 7th, 2021, 8:16 amThis is true, but why...

What I have seen is there is a good-sized section of women that relate very well with men in that they charm them. The men clearly treat the women differently than they do other men. They treat the women better and softer. Women are more likely to get any request or accommodation from men than from most women due to the sexual tension thing... The real hate starts between women when one is able to get more male attention than the other or more attention from a specific male. This again is root rejection. Successful sales managers know this stuff inside out.

The women that hate other women, it is also a function of rejection. The other women reject the charm of a fellow woman where a man will react in predictable ways.
True, but there is also a competitive aspect to inter-female antagonism that is present even before rejection occurs. That is, even the women who have never been rejected will act in the same ways, in part because they view other women as a threat to their male prospects.

----------
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 7th, 2021, 8:24 amAnd yet there are far more male misogynists than there are female misogynists. What you have said doesn't take away from this. It does not excuse male misogyny to say that some women exhibit misogyny too.
I don't have any reason to believe that there is far more male misogyny. I think that's just assumed because it is more visible. There is also a lot of misandry in our feminist society, so it is normal for us to be especially critical of males.


In my opinion a root-level reason for universal misogyny is the fact that women are much more conniving than men, and it has to do with physical strength and evolution. Men are much more likely to solve disputes by physical altercation and direct confrontation. Women have learned to manipulate the social sphere in indirect ways: they are much more prone to gossip, they are much more prone to lie, etc. This is how they have learned to compensate for their relative physical weakness. The result is that men are more honest and women more dishonest; men are more blunt or straightforward and women are more indirect and devious; men are more focused on things and doing and the physical realm, and women are more focused on people and talking and the social realm.

De Beauvoir is excellent on this topic, by the way. Her solution is that women need to stop abusing their freedom and living in inauthenticity, and society needs to take positive steps to compensate for the historical and physical imbalances between men and women.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Leontiskos wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:47 am ...the fact that women are much more conniving than men...
That is a statement that I think you need to justify, if you expect it to be accepted. It looks a lot like misogyny, albeit a pretty mild version of it?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

Leontiskos wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:47 am
mystery wrote: August 7th, 2021, 8:16 amThis is true, but why...

What I have seen is there is a good-sized section of women that relate very well with men in that they charm them. The men clearly treat the women differently than they do other men. They treat the women better and softer. Women are more likely to get any request or accommodation from men than from most women due to the sexual tension thing... The real hate starts between women when one is able to get more male attention than the other or more attention from a specific male. This again is root rejection. Successful sales managers know this stuff inside out.

The women that hate other women, it is also a function of rejection. The other women reject the charm of a fellow woman where a man will react in predictable ways.
True, but there is also a competitive aspect to inter-female antagonism that is present even before rejection occurs. That is, even the women who have never been rejected will act in the same ways, in part because they view other women as a threat to their male prospects.

----------
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 7th, 2021, 8:24 amAnd yet there are far more male misogynists than there are female misogynists. What you have said doesn't take away from this. It does not excuse male misogyny to say that some women exhibit misogyny too.
I don't have any reason to believe that there is far more male misogyny. I think that's just assumed because it is more visible. There is also a lot of misandry in our feminist society, so it is normal for us to be especially critical of males.


In my opinion a root-level reason for universal misogyny is the fact that women are much more conniving than men, and it has to do with physical strength and evolution. Men are much more likely to solve disputes by physical altercation and direct confrontation. Women have learned to manipulate the social sphere in indirect ways: they are much more prone to gossip, they are much more prone to lie, etc. This is how they have learned to compensate for their relative physical weakness. The result is that men are more honest and women more dishonest; men are more blunt or straightforward and women are more indirect and devious; men are more focused on things and doing and the physical realm, and women are more focused on people and talking and the social realm.

De Beauvoir is excellent on this topic, by the way. Her solution is that women need to stop abusing their freedom and living in inauthenticity, and society needs to take positive steps to compensate for the historical and physical imbalances between men and women.
nice and well-articulated.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: August 7th, 2021, 2:09 pm
Leontiskos wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:47 am ...the fact that women are much more conniving than men...
That is a statement that I think you need to justify, if you expect it to be accepted. It looks a lot like misogyny, albeit a pretty mild version of it?
how does suggesting that women are stronger in this skill equate to hate? I think dogs are more loyal than cats, but that doesn't mean I hate cats.

It is a fallacy to equate misogyny and admiration of a skill.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Leontiskos wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:47 am ...the fact that women are much more conniving than men...
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 7th, 2021, 2:09 pm That is a statement that I think you need to justify, if you expect it to be accepted. It looks a lot like misogyny, albeit a pretty mild version of it?
mystery wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:29 pm how does suggesting that women are stronger in this skill equate to hate?


"Conniving" isn't a skill, and it is in no way admirable.
Cambridge English Dictionary wrote:Conniving - adjective - A conniving person deceives others for their own advantage
Synonyms for "conniving" include "sly", "deceitful", "devious" and "underhand".


It is not privileged information that "conniving" is an insult in English. Most English-speakers know this; those that don't can easily consult a dictionary. Why would you try to twist this insult into a 'compliment' to the 'skill' of women? And why do you leap so readily to the defence of someone who insults women?
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: August 8th, 2021, 8:17 am
Leontiskos wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:47 am ...the fact that women are much more conniving than men...
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 7th, 2021, 2:09 pm That is a statement that I think you need to justify, if you expect it to be accepted. It looks a lot like misogyny, albeit a pretty mild version of it?
mystery wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:29 pm how does suggesting that women are stronger in this skill equate to hate?


"Conniving" isn't a skill, and it is in no way admirable.
Cambridge English Dictionary wrote:Conniving - adjective - A conniving person deceives others for their own advantage
Synonyms for "conniving" include "sly", "deceitful", "devious" and "underhand".


It is not privileged information that "conniving" is an insult in English. Most English-speakers know this; those that don't can easily consult a dictionary. Why would you try to twist this insult into a 'compliment' to the 'skill' of women? And why do you leap so readily to the defence of someone who insults women?
The definition of conniving relates to the ability to conspire with others to do something illegal or immoral. It often includes deceit of some kind, but not definitively.

Coinniving is definitely a skill,since it requires a skill set of capabilities that can as easily be described with a positive less perjorative word such collaborating, synergetic, correlative, reciprocal. I am pretty sure that King Charles would have called Cromwell conniving, until his head came off, whilst the majority of Parliementarains were collobrating to overthrow a tyrrant.

One man's conniving bastard is another man's resistance fighter.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 8th, 2021, 8:17 am
Leontiskos wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:47 am ...the fact that women are much more conniving than men...
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 7th, 2021, 2:09 pm That is a statement that I think you need to justify, if you expect it to be accepted. It looks a lot like misogyny, albeit a pretty mild version of it?
mystery wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:29 pm how does suggesting that women are stronger in this skill equate to hate?


"Conniving" isn't a skill, and it is in no way admirable.
Cambridge English Dictionary wrote:Conniving - adjective - A conniving person deceives others for their own advantage
Synonyms for "conniving" include "sly", "deceitful", "devious" and "underhand".


It is not privileged information that "conniving" is an insult in English. Most English-speakers know this; those that don't can easily consult a dictionary. Why would you try to twist this insult into a 'compliment' to the 'skill' of women? And why do you leap so readily to the defence of someone who insults women?
Able opponent; well not liking a skill is not the reason to invalidate it. That is an emotional response that has no logic. Now I do agree that it is a skill that is not desirable in others but it is a skill all the same.

For topics like this that seem so sure, always try to step back and look objectively.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by mystery »

Sculptor1 wrote: August 8th, 2021, 9:10 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 8th, 2021, 8:17 am
Leontiskos wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:47 am ...the fact that women are much more conniving than men...
Pattern-chaser wrote: August 7th, 2021, 2:09 pm That is a statement that I think you need to justify, if you expect it to be accepted. It looks a lot like misogyny, albeit a pretty mild version of it?
mystery wrote: August 7th, 2021, 11:29 pm how does suggesting that women are stronger in this skill equate to hate?


"Conniving" isn't a skill, and it is in no way admirable.
Cambridge English Dictionary wrote:Conniving - adjective - A conniving person deceives others for their own advantage
Synonyms for "conniving" include "sly", "deceitful", "devious" and "underhand".


It is not privileged information that "conniving" is an insult in English. Most English-speakers know this; those that don't can easily consult a dictionary. Why would you try to twist this insult into a 'compliment' to the 'skill' of women? And why do you leap so readily to the defence of someone who insults women?
The definition of conniving relates to the ability to conspire with others to do something illegal or immoral. It often includes deceit of some kind, but not definitively.

Coinniving is definitely a skill,since it requires a skill set of capabilities that can as easily be described with a positive less perjorative word such collaborating, synergetic, correlative, reciprocal. I am pretty sure that King Charles would have called Cromwell conniving, until his head came off, whilst the majority of Parliementarains were collobrating to overthrow a tyrrant.

One man's conniving bastard is another man's resistance fighter.
Yes, well told. A nice example of a logical analysis.
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Re: What is the root cause of misogyny?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 8th, 2021, 8:17 am "Conniving" isn't a skill, and it is in no way admirable.
Cambridge English Dictionary wrote:Conniving - adjective - A conniving person deceives others for their own advantage
Synonyms for "conniving" include "sly", "deceitful", "devious" and "underhand".


It is not privileged information that "conniving" is an insult in English. Most English-speakers know this; those that don't can easily consult a dictionary. Why would you try to twist this insult into a 'compliment' to the 'skill' of women? And why do you leap so readily to the defence of someone who insults women?
Sculptor1 wrote: August 8th, 2021, 9:10 am The definition of conniving relates to the ability to conspire with others to do something illegal or immoral. It often includes deceit of some kind, but not definitively.

Coinniving is definitely a skill,since it requires a skill set of capabilities that can as easily be described with a positive less perjorative word such collaborating, synergetic, correlative, reciprocal. I am pretty sure that King Charles would have called Cromwell conniving, until his head came off, whilst the majority of Parliementarains were collobrating to overthrow a tyrrant.

One man's conniving bastard is another man's resistance fighter.
The way that paedophiles practice their 'art' 🤮 - evading detection while gaining access to their victims under the noses of those who would protect them, etc - could, in the same way, be described as a 'skill' 🤮. But few people would choose the words art or 'skill' to describe it. The strongly positive and approving connotations of these words does not mesh with the negativity of what is being described.

Skill or not, "conniving" is a wholly negative thing that is not considered in any way admirable. It is scorned and despised by most.
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