Your choice: better to reign in hell or serve in heaven?

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Your choice: better to reign in hell or serve in heaven?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Nick_A wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 9:54 am The point is that even if a person doesn't understand, does that justify emotional egoistical condemnation?
If they don't understand and the person not understood doesn't seem to care whether they're understood, sure.
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Re: Your choice: better to reign in hell or serve in heaven?

Post by Nick_A »

Fanman wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 4:05 pm Nick_A,
The Christ could have been a lawless one. He had the quality of being making such freedom possible. But he chose to serve universal purposes. Jesus chose to serve in heaven rather than reign in hell.

I was hoping to find those who understand what is meant.
How could Jesus be both the saviour and the lawless one? Also, Jesus reigns in heaven because he is the only son of God. Only his father has more authority than him. You are capable of understanding it yourself. You can listen to one any of the gospels in 15-20 minutes on most Bible websites.
The Bible is like high art. It can be understood at a basic literal level or at a transcendent level depending upon the understanding of the reader. Jesus was given a choice.
Matthew 4

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
If Jesus had no choice, why include this passage in the Bible and how does it relate to human being? We are given the option of conscious contemplation: What is temptation, choice, and conscious will as opposed to mechanical desire. I see that I don't know but also why it is worth contemplating in order to appreciate this biblical passage.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Your choice: better to reign in hell or serve in heaven?

Post by Nick_A »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 4:58 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 9:54 am The point is that even if a person doesn't understand, does that justify emotional egoistical condemnation?
If they don't understand and the person not understood doesn't seem to care whether they're understood, sure.
Do you emotionally condemn what you don't understand? Would you have been first in line to condemn the person who suggested the world was round?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Your choice: better to reign in hell or serve in heaven?

Post by Fanman »

Nick_A,

You’re reading too much into things. The new testament is supposed to be taken literally. That is why Jesus explained what he meant when he spoke in parables.

I mean, how can you rationalise two separate embodiments, one of good and the other of evil, working together - towards what end?
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
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Re: Your choice: better to reign in hell or serve in heaven?

Post by mystery »

Nick_A wrote: June 1st, 2021, 5:01 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: June 1st, 2021, 3:12 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 1st, 2021, 12:13 pm The function of triune vertical consciousness as opposed to dualistic animal reactive consciousness is to receive from above so as to give to below.
What in the world? What cult's literature is that from?
You don't understand but that is OK. The unfortunate part is when those who have begun to experience the triune perspective are abused by those limited to a dualistic perspective and they let it effect them. It is the way of the world and probably is similar to what initially happened to those who tried to convince the experts that the world was round. It takes a while.
example would be Adam, Samson, David, do we have others on record. Those that had the connection but had is severed by lizard brain.
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Re: Your choice: better to reign in hell or serve in heaven?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Nick_A wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 5:28 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 4:58 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 9:54 am The point is that even if a person doesn't understand, does that justify emotional egoistical condemnation?
If they don't understand and the person not understood doesn't seem to care whether they're understood, sure.
Do you emotionally condemn what you don't understand? Would you have been first in line to condemn the person who suggested the world was round?
Again, it would be more about the person not caring to try to be understood.
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Re: Your choice: better to reign in hell or serve in heaven?

Post by Nick_A »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 3rd, 2021, 8:00 am
Nick_A wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 5:28 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 4:58 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 2nd, 2021, 9:54 am The point is that even if a person doesn't understand, does that justify emotional egoistical condemnation?
If they don't understand and the person not understood doesn't seem to care whether they're understood, sure.
How many want to understand as opposed to sacrificing the pleasures of emotional condemnation? From Plato's Cave.
[Socrates] And if there were a contest, and he had to compete in measuring the shadows with the prisoners who had never moved out of the cave, while his sight was still weak, and before his eyes had become steady (and the time which would be needed to acquire this new habit of sight might be very considerable) would he not be ridiculous? Men would say of him that up he went and down he came without his eyes; and that it was better not even to think of ascending; and if any one tried to loose another and lead him up to the light, let them only catch the offender, and they would put him to death.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Your choice: better to reign in hell or serve in heaven?

Post by Alias »

LuckyR wrote: May 31st, 2021, 3:17 am Everyone would rather rule, all other things being equal (which since heaven and hell are supposed to be opposites, are the quintessential unequal pair). Thus the differences in answering the question.
I'm not at all sure everyone would rule: a whole lot of people opt to shirk even the small responsibility they have as free citizens, and many of them are ardent fans, followers and worshipers, eager to serve.
Of course, the question was wrong in offering only those two options: some would rather observe than participate; some would prefer governance by consensus, or democratic vote or anarchy.
And I'm not convinced that opposites can't be equal, even though there is a recent tendency to assume equivalent means identical. A pound of coal, a pound of gold, a pound of cheese and a pound of chalk are all equal in weight.

As regards Satan, there are three different stories.
In the Old Testament, references to the Fall are scarce; it seems to be a result of a power struggle among the denizens of Heaven - Jahveh's former membership in the Sumerian pantheon is largely covered up. In this version, Hell isn't even a place until Lucifer is banished there and makes it his own domain. Thereafter, the continued contention between him and Jahveh is over the control of humankind. At that time - and for the remainder of the OT, God has no son.
It was only Mad John, in a PS to the New Testament, who stuck Jesus into a prequel.
Milton picked up that latter thread. In his version, God framed the issue thus: Archangels are arbitrarily demoted below a half-mortal conceived on a whim, time-shifted back to before the creation of the man whose sin he will have been conceived to redeem, once man's been tempted to commit the first sin by the not-yet fallen angel who will fall into a yet-to-be-invented hell, because he objected to the redeemer being put in charge, millennia before the redemption and at least some days before the temptation. It's more circular than plausible, but there you are: Lucifer's choice was simply to refuse servitude.
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