Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

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Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

I have a problem with the terminology used to describe conspiracy theories in general. I feel that the term is too much of a wide basket and needs to be narrowed down into two categories.

My problem with the current situation is that when you discuss or build conspiracy theories, you may be legitimately attempting to figure out a truth that may be out there, and the conspiracy theory can help you to predict and anticipate the future correctly and when it does, it seems to give credence to your theory, as something that may be true.

However, in my experience conspiracy theories are very often not at all used as I suggest above. Instead, they are used to try and create falsehoods.

Further more, the objective of a conspiracy theorist has often nothing to do with possibly unearthing the truth but rather attempting to benefit from the reaction that people / listeners will have to the ideas and conspiracy suggested. So the motivations of a conspiracy theorist artists are likely going to be selfish as oppposee to having the philosophical motivation of unearthing the truth. So, if you have apple trees and sell apples, you create conspiracy theory why the oranges of your neighbor are involved in all sorts of evils. This way, it may help convince people to buy more of your apples instead.

Once you understand where a conspiracy theorist is going with his/her conspiracies, you immediately get to know so much more about the said conspiracy theories. At that point, I do feel the need to have in my vocabulary words to differentiate the two different approaches because I feel that one is good and the other is an evil.

I am not satisfied with differentiating such theories by saying that one is benign whereas the other is malignant because it's like saying that a knife in the hands of a murderer is a malignant knife whereas in the hands of a law abiding person it is a benign knife. No, I think a knife is never either malignant or benin. I think a knife is and will always remain just a cutting tool but that it can be used as a weapon.

So my point here is that the conspiracy theory can be used almost like a weapon but since it's just ideas, talking about it as a weapon makes little sense in my opinion.

So I would like to suggest that when a conspiracy theory is believed to be serving nefarious purposes and attempting to obscure truth, then it should be deemed to be a machine theory instead of a conspiracy theory. My reasoning behind this is that machines are arguably without a soul and therefore can never get to the truth. Furthermore, machines are often used in unethical ways and for selfish purpose. So I think this name I suggest is a good fit for what many conspiracy theorists create. Many of them are in fact machine theorists and not conspiracy theorists. They will side with machines against climate science so as to free machines from any restrictions as they portray themselves in the machines.

So I feel that it is essential to call these conspiracy theory for what they really are and that is machine theories. What do you think?
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: June 4th, 2021, 9:38 pm I have a problem with the terminology used to describe conspiracy theories in general. I feel that the term is too much of a wide basket and needs to be narrowed down into two categories.

My problem with the current situation is that when you discuss or build conspiracy theories, you may be legitimately attempting to figure out a truth that may be out there, and the conspiracy theory can help you to predict and anticipate the future correctly and when it does, it seems to give credence to your theory, as something that may be true.

However, in my experience conspiracy theories are very often not at all used as I suggest above. Instead, they are used to try and create falsehoods.

Further more, the objective of a conspiracy theorist has often nothing to do with possibly unearthing the truth but rather attempting to benefit from the reaction that people / listeners will have to the ideas and conspiracy suggested. So the motivations of a conspiracy theorist artists are likely going to be selfish as oppposee to having the philosophical motivation of unearthing the truth. So, if you have apple trees and sell apples, you create conspiracy theory why the oranges of your neighbor are involved in all sorts of evils. This way, it may help convince people to buy more of your apples instead.

Once you understand where a conspiracy theorist is going with his/her conspiracies, you immediately get to know so much more about the said conspiracy theories. At that point, I do feel the need to have in my vocabulary words to differentiate the two different approaches because I feel that one is good and the other is an evil.

I am not satisfied with differentiating such theories by saying that one is benign whereas the other is malignant because it's like saying that a knife in the hands of a murderer is a malignant knife whereas in the hands of a law abiding person it is a benign knife. No, I think a knife is never either malignant or benin. I think a knife is and will always remain just a cutting tool but that it can be used as a weapon.

So my point here is that the conspiracy theory can be used almost like a weapon but since it's just ideas, talking about it as a weapon makes little sense in my opinion.

So I would like to suggest that when a conspiracy theory is believed to be serving nefarious purposes and attempting to obscure truth, then it should be deemed to be a machine theory instead of a conspiracy theory. My reasoning behind this is that machines are arguably without a soul and therefore can never get to the truth. Furthermore, machines are often used in unethical ways and for selfish purpose. So I think this name I suggest is a good fit for what many conspiracy theorists create. Many of them are in fact machine theorists and not conspiracy theorists. They will side with machines against climate science so as to free machines from any restrictions as they portray themselves in the machines.

So I feel that it is essential to call these conspiracy theory for what they really are and that is machine theories. What do you think?
Application of the term "conspiracy theory" comes with it a connotation of mental paranoia. If you want to discredit an idea then call it a conspiracy theory.
The problem with that is that people do IN FACT conspire to act in clandestine ways and to cover their tracks. Cover a paedophile ring by killing the chief witness in a cell which was not guarded that particular night - just a conspiracy theory? Maybe?

There is a worst type of conspiracy; one that happens in plain view which is so audacious that patriots and loyal subjects believe that "THEY" would not do that, for various reasons such as looting the public purse for their own enrichment, whilst the country sinks in debt; to conspire in silence as corporation tax is low and employment tax is high; or conspire to make false assumptions about the worth of different classes of society such as based on race and gender - surely the state would not do that? Not in THIS country???

WHy you are bringing machines into this I have no idea.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Atla »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: June 4th, 2021, 9:38 pm I have a problem with the terminology used to describe conspiracy theories in general. I feel that the term is too much of a wide basket and needs to be narrowed down into two categories.

My problem with the current situation is that when you discuss or build conspiracy theories, you may be legitimately attempting to figure out a truth that may be out there, and the conspiracy theory can help you to predict and anticipate the future correctly and when it does, it seems to give credence to your theory, as something that may be true.

However, in my experience conspiracy theories are very often not at all used as I suggest above. Instead, they are used to try and create falsehoods.

Further more, the objective of a conspiracy theorist has often nothing to do with possibly unearthing the truth but rather attempting to benefit from the reaction that people / listeners will have to the ideas and conspiracy suggested. So the motivations of a conspiracy theorist artists are likely going to be selfish as oppposee to having the philosophical motivation of unearthing the truth. So, if you have apple trees and sell apples, you create conspiracy theory why the oranges of your neighbor are involved in all sorts of evils. This way, it may help convince people to buy more of your apples instead.

Once you understand where a conspiracy theorist is going with his/her conspiracies, you immediately get to know so much more about the said conspiracy theories. At that point, I do feel the need to have in my vocabulary words to differentiate the two different approaches because I feel that one is good and the other is an evil.

I am not satisfied with differentiating such theories by saying that one is benign whereas the other is malignant because it's like saying that a knife in the hands of a murderer is a malignant knife whereas in the hands of a law abiding person it is a benign knife. No, I think a knife is never either malignant or benin. I think a knife is and will always remain just a cutting tool but that it can be used as a weapon.

So my point here is that the conspiracy theory can be used almost like a weapon but since it's just ideas, talking about it as a weapon makes little sense in my opinion.

So I would like to suggest that when a conspiracy theory is believed to be serving nefarious purposes and attempting to obscure truth, then it should be deemed to be a machine theory instead of a conspiracy theory. My reasoning behind this is that machines are arguably without a soul and therefore can never get to the truth. Furthermore, machines are often used in unethical ways and for selfish purpose. So I think this name I suggest is a good fit for what many conspiracy theorists create. Many of them are in fact machine theorists and not conspiracy theorists. They will side with machines against climate science so as to free machines from any restrictions as they portray themselves in the machines.

So I feel that it is essential to call these conspiracy theory for what they really are and that is machine theories. What do you think?
You've just come across a "machine" then, which has been going on for some time now, especially in North America, and to a lesser degree in Europe. Conspiracy theories and machine theories are deliberately being treated as the same kind of insane theories.

This is done in order to cover up some major recent conspiracies that have actually taken place. It's one of the ways how the general public is being manipulated, the goal is to convince people that anyone who questions official stories must be insane.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Conspiracy theorists aren't trying to create falsehoods. You're confusing them with trolls.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: June 4th, 2021, 9:38 pm However, in my experience conspiracy theories are very often not at all used as I suggest above. Instead, they are used to try and create falsehoods.

Ah, conspiracy theories. A few of them can be easily shown to be false. A few more will one day prove useful, and maybe even true. But I think most of them are time-wasting falsehoods, as you observe. I have always assumed that people make them up to inflame and provoke others, but I don't know that for a fact.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: June 4th, 2021, 9:38 pm So my point here is that the conspiracy theory can be used almost like a weapon but since it's just ideas, talking about it as a weapon makes little sense in my opinion.
I'm sorry, but this makes as much sense to me as "sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me". I.e. it makes no sense at all (to me). Under some circumstances, words can be MUCH more hurtful than simple physical weapons. IMO, it makes perfect sense to talk about conspiracy theories as weapons. Other perspectives are also valuable, not just this one, but ideas can definitely and usefully be seen as weapons.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 5th, 2021, 7:47 am
Empiricist-Bruno wrote: June 4th, 2021, 9:38 pm So my point here is that the conspiracy theory can be used almost like a weapon but since it's just ideas, talking about it as a weapon makes little sense in my opinion.
I'm sorry, but this makes as much sense to me as "sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me". I.e. it makes no sense at all (to me). Under some circumstances, words can be MUCH more hurtful than simple physical weapons. IMO, it makes perfect sense to talk about conspiracy theories as weapons. Other perspectives are also valuable, not just this one, but ideas can definitely and usefully be seen as weapons.
Sticks and stones is more prescriptive than descriptive.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Terrapin Station »

It's similar to, say, the U.S. Marines' "Pain is weakness leaving the body."
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by LuckyR »

Many conspiracy theories are the product of amateurs concocting stories in an area of professional study. That is: inexpert opinion in competition with as accurate of knowledge as can be obtained. If you set aside the erroneous beliefs for a second, imagine the hubris to not bother to put in the training in a field and suppose that your armchair theory is serious competition to the life's work of academics toiling away for decades devoted to that exact field of study.

How would you respond if you read some random theory online to try to explain a concept that you happened to be an expert in, something you had done professionally for decades?
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 5th, 2021, 5:54 am
Application of the term "conspiracy theory" comes with it a connotation of mental paranoia. If you want to discredit an idea then call it a conspiracy theory.
The problem with that is that people do IN FACT conspire to act in clandestine ways and to cover their tracks. Cover a paedophile ring by killing the chief witness in a cell which was not guarded that particular night - just a conspiracy theory? Maybe?

Thank you for acknowledging what is troubling me about conspiracy theories. The question of why it is that the term "conspiracy theory" comes with a connotation of mental paranoia is of concern to me. I understand this evolved from new medias such as Fox that run sensationalist stories that dispute established facts with far fetched ideas, philosophies. My beef here is that those who report upon those who run such stories ought not to call these reporters conspiracy theorist artists because the reality is that they are running a show and are attempting to draw people's attention. If your ultimate goal is to hold people's attention, sensational conspiracy theory may help you to achieve your goal but what you do isn't to try and get to the truth of things with it; your objective is to increase your audience. In that climate, you shouldn't be called a conspiracy theorist but instead a good capitalist, or capitalist newsperson, or affront reporter or what I suggested in the opening post.
Sculptor1 wrote: June 5th, 2021, 5:54 am
There is a worst type of conspiracy; one that happens in plain view which is so audacious that patriots and loyal subjects believe that "THEY" would not do that, for various reasons such as looting the public purse for their own enrichment, whilst the country sinks in debt; to conspire in silence as corporation tax is low and employment tax is high; or conspire to make false assumptions about the worth of different classes of society such as based on race and gender - surely the state would not do that? Not in THIS country???
I am not sure that what you are talking about here refers to a conspiracy. The fact that some people like to put all their trust into some politicians who thank them by abusing them in return brings into highlight how people evolve a cult mind and support cult leaders. Although an interesting observation, I am not sure this is on topic.
Sculptor1 wrote: June 5th, 2021, 5:54 am
WHy you are bringing machines into this I have no idea.
It's my pet topic.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: June 9th, 2021, 4:34 pm
Sculptor1 wrote: June 5th, 2021, 5:54 am
Application of the term "conspiracy theory" comes with it a connotation of mental paranoia. If you want to discredit an idea then call it a conspiracy theory.
The problem with that is that people do IN FACT conspire to act in clandestine ways and to cover their tracks. Cover a paedophile ring by killing the chief witness in a cell which was not guarded that particular night - just a conspiracy theory? Maybe?

Thank you for acknowledging what is troubling me about conspiracy theories. The question of why it is that the term "conspiracy theory" comes with a connotation of mental paranoia is of concern to me. I understand this evolved from new medias such as Fox that run sensationalist stories that dispute established facts with far fetched ideas, philosophies. My beef here is that those who report upon those who run such stories ought not to call these reporters conspiracy theorist artists because the reality is that they are running a show and are attempting to draw people's attention. If your ultimate goal is to hold people's attention, sensational conspiracy theory may help you to achieve your goal but what you do isn't to try and get to the truth of things with it; your objective is to increase your audience. In that climate, you shouldn't be called a conspiracy theorist but instead a good capitalist, or capitalist newsperson, or affront reporter or what I suggested in the opening post.
Sculptor1 wrote: June 5th, 2021, 5:54 am
There is a worst type of conspiracy; one that happens in plain view which is so audacious that patriots and loyal subjects believe that "THEY" would not do that, for various reasons such as looting the public purse for their own enrichment, whilst the country sinks in debt; to conspire in silence as corporation tax is low and employment tax is high; or conspire to make false assumptions about the worth of different classes of society such as based on race and gender - surely the state would not do that? Not in THIS country???
I am not sure that what you are talking about here refers to a conspiracy. The fact that some people like to put all their trust into some politicians who thank them by abusing them in return brings into highlight how people evolve a cult mind and support cult leaders. Although an interesting observation, I am not sure this is on topic.
Why is it that Jeff Bezos pays no tax? The rich and powerful conspire with politics to defend their indefensible positions.
Conspiracies in plain sight; the Military/Industrial complex is a CT in plain sight. Soliders duped with "patriotism" , "to or die", "follow orders". whilst the industrialists encourages ever more wars to sell their weapons. Since 1945, the USA has been continually engaged in completely useless and unnecesary wars, whilst loyal Americans die, and pay for it in taxation.
Sculptor1 wrote: June 5th, 2021, 5:54 am
WHy you are bringing machines into this I have no idea.
It's my pet topic.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Sculptor1 wrote: June 9th, 2021, 5:32 pm
Why is it that Jeff Bezos pays no tax? The rich and powerful conspire with politics to defend their indefensible positions.
Conspiracies in plain sight; the Military/Industrial complex is a CT in plain sight. Soliders duped with "patriotism" , "to or die", "follow orders". whilst the industrialists encourages ever more wars to sell their weapons. Since 1945, the USA has been continually engaged in completely useless and unnecesary wars, whilst loyal Americans die, and pay for it in taxation.

Conspiracies that draw the attention of authorities because of their illegality, such as tax dodging are indeed valid conspiracies and deserve to be recognized as such because they will be/should be assessed in a law court and so long as the courts demand truth and are independent, the hypothesis contained in such conspiracy theory can be honestly assessed and determined to be true or false.


Political conspiracies such as the idea that the USA is continually involved in uselss and unnecessary wars will not atttract the attention of the courts or other truth finding organization and therefore these conspiracies serve a partisan purpose. In my opinion, such conspiracies don't deserve recognition as conspiracies because they are in fact tools for partisans to reach their objectives. So such theories should be known as machine theories, in honor of machines and how they help people in a very selfish way.

So, the problem really is that there may be lacking in the USA (and many other places) social institutions dedicated to finding the truth about non-legal issues, such as, "is there global warming caused by people and is some reaction desirable to mitigate this?"

Once important truths are established in key areas, an attack from machine theorists could be faced with some forms of censure. The disregard for truth and the inability to tell the difference between a true conspiracy theory and a machine theory seems to be the root cause of many of the world's troubles.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Empiricist-Bruno »

Atla wrote: June 5th, 2021, 6:18 am You've just come across a "machine" then, which has been going on for some time now, especially in North America, and to a lesser degree in Europe. Conspiracy theories and machine theories are deliberately being treated as the same kind of insane theories.

This is done in order to cover up some major recent conspiracies that have actually taken place. It's one of the ways how the general public is being manipulated, the goal is to convince people that anyone who questions official stories must be insane.
I think you and I think along the same lines here. Yes, discouraging people from seeking the truth or even preventing them from even expecting to be able to find the truth, useful truths is certainly a possible goal for some individuals. People unable to know the truth on their own become helpless and perhaps eassier to manipulate.

But the above certainly is a machine theory in itself because no tribunals are out there establishing the truth or lack thereof of such ideas. My partisan idea is that some new social institutions dedicated to finding key truths need to be created and people need to demand the truth in this way.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Atla »

Empiricist-Bruno wrote: June 13th, 2021, 8:44 pm
Atla wrote: June 5th, 2021, 6:18 am You've just come across a "machine" then, which has been going on for some time now, especially in North America, and to a lesser degree in Europe. Conspiracy theories and machine theories are deliberately being treated as the same kind of insane theories.

This is done in order to cover up some major recent conspiracies that have actually taken place. It's one of the ways how the general public is being manipulated, the goal is to convince people that anyone who questions official stories must be insane.
I think you and I think along the same lines here. Yes, discouraging people from seeking the truth or even preventing them from even expecting to be able to find the truth, useful truths is certainly a possible goal for some individuals. People unable to know the truth on their own become helpless and perhaps eassier to manipulate.

But the above certainly is a machine theory in itself because no tribunals are out there establishing the truth or lack thereof of such ideas. My partisan idea is that some new social institutions dedicated to finding key truths need to be created and people need to demand the truth in this way.
Then for example, an institution could have been created from the 9/11 truther movement by now, but it's not allowed.
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Re: Conspiracy Theories or Machine Theories?

Post by Sculptor1 »

ST Voyage "The Voyager Conspiracy" S6: E9

I just watched an episode of ST Yoyager that is relevent to this discussion.
Seven of Nne enhances her regen. machine to give her unprecendented access to a tonne of data.
She soon indentifes an unknown problem, which turns out to be correct.

As time goes on she uncovers what she thinks is a conspiracy amoungst key mambers of the crew. Yet with the same body of evidence cooks up no less than 3 theoriesin total, none of which are compatible with eadh other yet all have a high degree of credibility.

I'd like to recommend it to several people here who have expressed rather absurd and far fetched theories for their own refelction, but I doubt they will see the error of their ways. Flat Earth; alien possession; 9/11 Truthers; faked Moon landings; "Jewish Space Lasers"; Pizzagate. ad nauseam

There is a much more subtle and deeper self conspiracy though.
The love of money does conspire to force advertising, and promotion of drugs and food stuffs which are less beneficial; more harmful; and unnecessarily foisted on the public. It squews statistics and forces scientific findings to be exaggerated, or even faked in the interests of keeping the funding going. The existence of the crazy stuff means that serious criticisms of pharmatological studies, can be easily dismissed as just conspiracy theories! Yet when negative studies are buried and not published, and warnings about ultra-processed foods are dismissed then we have a problem.
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