Was Judas the first Liberal?

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Nick_A
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Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

John 12
Jesus Anointed at Bethany

12 Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 Here a dinner was given in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. 3 Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

4 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

7 “Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. 8 You will always have the poor among you"
......
Judas claimed the nard should have been sold and the money given to the poor after removal of administrative fees. Typical liberal philosophy. Jesus replies in a way sure to insult the liberal philosophy saying that "you will always have the poor among you." So much for social justice.

Is there any way a a person can defend Jesus' shocking reply or should he be canceled as not PC by the cancel culture?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
CIN
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by CIN »

Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 12:19 pm Judas claimed the nard should have been sold and the money given to the poor after removal of administrative fees. Typical liberal philosophy. Jesus replies in a way sure to insult the liberal philosophy saying that "you will always have the poor among you." So much for social justice.

Is there any way a a person can defend Jesus' shocking reply or should he be canceled as not PC by the cancel culture?
Matthew 19:
"21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven."

Seems like Jesus was a much bigger liberal than Judas.
Philosophy is a waste of time. But then, so is most of life.
Nick_A
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

CIN wrote: June 9th, 2021, 12:25 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 12:19 pm Judas claimed the nard should have been sold and the money given to the poor after removal of administrative fees. Typical liberal philosophy. Jesus replies in a way sure to insult the liberal philosophy saying that "you will always have the poor among you." So much for social justice.

Is there any way a a person can defend Jesus' shocking reply or should he be canceled as not PC by the cancel culture?
Matthew 19:
"21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven."

Seems like Jesus was a much bigger liberal than Judas.
Jesus told the rich man to give his wealth to the poor while he told Judas her wealth should be given to Jesus. Can you explain it or must such questions be canceled as questioning social justice?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
CIN
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by CIN »

Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 12:43 pm
Jesus told the rich man to give his wealth to the poor while he told Judas her wealth should be given to Jesus. Can you explain it or must such questions be canceled as questioning social justice?
You're asking me to explain the behaviour of the Son of God?

I'm flattered, but I think you may be asking the wrong person. I'm just a humble agnostic.
Philosophy is a waste of time. But then, so is most of life.
AverageBozo
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by AverageBozo »

No, Judas was preceded by
AverageBozo
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by AverageBozo »

AverageBozo wrote: June 9th, 2021, 2:02 pm No, Judas was preceded by Moses.
Nick_A
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

CIN wrote: June 9th, 2021, 1:02 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 12:43 pm
Jesus told the rich man to give his wealth to the poor while he told Judas her wealth should be given to Jesus. Can you explain it or must such questions be canceled as questioning social justice?
You're asking me to explain the behaviour of the Son of God?

I'm flattered, but I think you may be asking the wrong person. I'm just a humble agnostic.
That is why I prefer classic philosophy to modern agnostic philosophy. I can truly experience a question a bit deeper than if Trump sucks. I just hope someone will come long who can explain why Judas does not expresses the typical liberal attitude and if there is anything wrong with it?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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AmericanKestrel
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 6:27 pm
That is why I prefer classic philosophy to modern agnostic philosophy. I can truly experience a question a bit deeper than if Trump sucks. I just hope someone will come long who can explain why Judas does not expresses the typical liberal attitude and if there is anything wrong with it?
I am well read about the Bible but I can tell how I interpret the two versions of the scene as you have presented. The washing of the feet that Martha does is sign of worship, respect, honoring Jesus. I am going to assume she regards him as an enlightened spirit. She is offering him what is most precious to her, sacrificing It in essence, for Jesus. This is what she blieves and her action is authentic.
Judas questioning her is meaningless taunt. Spiritually he is not in the same place as she is.
As for the instruction to the man to give all his money to the poor and follow jesus has a deeper meaning. It is not about the poor, it is about the rich man who is so attached to his wealth that he is unable to part with, even when Jesus offers him the kingdom of god. To attain spiritual maturity requires that one transcends his material needs and have faith in what Jesus offers.The rich man is not there yet. Martha is. The poor will always be with us . This is the world we live in, it is samsara, it is suffering, cycle of birth and death. To break the chain and attain moksha, you need to be with Jesus.
"The Serpent did not lie."
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AmericanKestrel
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

I meant to say I am NOT well read in the bible
"The Serpent did not lie."
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mystery
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by mystery »

Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 12:19 pm John 12
Jesus Anointed at Bethany

12 Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 Here a dinner was given in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. 3 Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

4 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

7 “Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. 8 You will always have the poor among you"
......
Judas claimed the nard should have been sold and the money given to the poor after removal of administrative fees. Typical liberal philosophy. Jesus replies in a way sure to insult the liberal philosophy saying that "you will always have the poor among you." So much for social justice.

Is there any way a a person can defend Jesus' shocking reply or should he be canceled as not PC by the cancel culture?
Would you add a shortlist of the traits of being liberal that we should accept as part of this question? Then we can consider the behaviors independent of the label.
Nick_A
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

Hi AmericanKestrel and Mystery.

I didn't intend this thread to argue conservatism and liberalism but more quality vs quantity.

Jesus represents the highest quality of being or conscious human evolution. Judas represents the secular literal mind, attached to the earth, and incapable of experiencing awakening and conscious evolution.

Mary gives her wealth to glorify quality while Judas supports the quantity who cannot understand.

College students are taught to believe in equity
Many people believe that “equality” is one of the principles of social justice, but it’s actually “equity.” What’s the difference? Equity takes into account the effects of discrimination and aims for an equal outcome. There’s a graphic that demonstrates this well: three people are trying to see over a fence. One of them is already tall and able to see – they represent the most privileged in society. The other can just barely see and the last person – the most vulnerable in society – can’t see at all. “Equality” gives everyone one box to stand on, even though the tallest person doesn’t need it and it still doesn’t allow the shortest person to see. “Equity” doesn’t give the privileged person any boxes. Instead, the middle person gets one box and the last gets two. Now, everyone is at an equal level.
But it is this minority who support what Jesus introduced into the World that actually do the good for the World. Those who support the efforts of those supporting cancel culture support the diminishing of human being and its quality in favor of the impossibility of social justice. As A K wrote, it is the suffering of samsara. It is cyclical and no amount of PC slogans can change it. Only awakening to conscious evolution can which the literal mind rejects.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Angelo Cannata
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Angelo Cannata »

Here's my explanation of the problem: you don't need to help God to help poor people, because he has the power to cancel all poverty in the world in one second. It seems that he, rather than canceling poverty, prefers to call our attention to the reason why poverty needs to be canceled, which is a rich spiritual life: without understanding this reason, from the perspective of God, canceling poverty is nothing, it's like having a superfast car while not having any destination to go to. I'm aware that this argument of mine is exposed to criticism: actually I don't think that it's a really strong defence of God, but I think it has a lot to make us meditate about.
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mystery
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by mystery »

not sure I get what you looking to solve. Perhaps you can translate it to a more simplified example. If my guess is really out of this world, i'll try again after your clarifications.


I'll take a guess and try to add value.

Political Correctness used as a control mechanism is really using shame as a control mechanism. Using shame really only works well with ppl with lower self-esteem. However we, no.. not we, they... teach the many to have low self-esteem on purpose so that the shame mechanism will work and control can be achieved. It is a way to consolidate and maintain power. We know that humans have two primal drives, sex and the need to be great. This system gives both to the elite. Cancel culture controls by fear of shame and if needed shame. That then controls almost all aspects of interaction as other sheep also fear being targeted with shame.

The story you use to illustrate about Jesus and Judas; is not key the acts of Judas? If Judas did not do that, how does the story go? Judas is very key to the salvation story, even a lynchpin. Perhaps Judas sits in honor as giving the ultimate sacrifice, his honor so that the salvation plan could be completed. Just as any battlefield is full of fallen warriors who none sing for. For do, we pretend to know the story and backstory of God himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Judas

Of course, Constantine and others did not allow this in the cannon. But it exists all the same.

Judas possibly the one who really understood.
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LuckyR
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by LuckyR »

Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 12:19 pm John 12
Jesus Anointed at Bethany

12 Six days before the Passover, Jesus came to Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2 Here a dinner was given in Jesus’ honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. 3 Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.

4 But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5 “Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.” 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

7 “Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. 8 You will always have the poor among you"
......
Judas claimed the nard should have been sold and the money given to the poor after removal of administrative fees. Typical liberal philosophy. Jesus replies in a way sure to insult the liberal philosophy saying that "you will always have the poor among you." So much for social justice.

Is there any way a a person can defend Jesus' shocking reply or should he be canceled as not PC by the cancel culture?
I guess I see it differently. Since this is one of the first examples in literature of "what-about-ism" (what about selling the nard instead and giving the money to the poor?), Judas was the first potential Fox News contributor.
"As usual... it depends."
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Sculptor1
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Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 12:19 pm John 12

Is there any way a a person can defend Jesus' shocking reply or should he be canceled as not PC by the cancel culture?


No, Judas was the first capitalist. EVerything is for sale including your friends.
Jesus may well have been the first socialist though. And the first socialist to be "screwed-over" by the first capitalist.
WHilst Jesus was throwing money-lenders out of the temple Judas was getting his 30 pieces of silver.
Last edited by Sculptor1 on June 10th, 2021, 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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