Was Judas the first Liberal?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Post Reply
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Steve3007 »

Nick_A wrote:The educated person is one who has consciously balanced their tripartite soul so they function as one and have inwardly turned towards the light leading to freedom from Plato's cave..
OK. Thanks. So them folks you ironically refer to as "educated" in all your other posts is folks who thinks they're educated because they been to those fancy schools and use all that fancy language but they haven't turned towards that light. They just just keep looking at the shadows. That right?

(Sorry for the language but I've just been watching 3:10 To Yuma.)
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

Steve3007 wrote: June 12th, 2021, 3:37 pm
Nick_A wrote:The educated person is one who has consciously balanced their tripartite soul so they function as one and have inwardly turned towards the light leading to freedom from Plato's cave..
OK. Thanks. So them folks you ironically refer to as "educated" in all your other posts is folks who thinks they're educated because they been to those fancy schools and use all that fancy language but they haven't turned towards that light. They just just keep looking at the shadows. That right?

(Sorry for the language but I've just been watching 3:10 To Yuma.)
True, the pseudo educated know facts so have knowledge. However they lack understanding or the human perspective which enable facts to have meaning the soul craves for so cannot be considered an educated human being.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

So now hopefully it is more clear why Mary poured the nard on Jesus rather than giving it to Judas to give to the poor.

Jesus had evolved "understanding" or the human potential while Judas was limited to dualistic "facts." Mary valued understanding more than facts.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote: June 11th, 2021, 11:58 pm Sy Borg
Christianity cares even less about the inner person than the average physicist does. All they care about today is that Christians like you follow and promote the "correct" political dogma. This was once once the side of conservatism, but now it's reverted to radical authoritarianism. Hey ho.
Is this the "correct political dogma" expressed in the following biblical passage? Is there a difference between giving to God and giving to Caesar?

Mark 12:17

Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him.
Whatever Jesus, who may or may not have existed, may have said or not is irrelevant. Evangelist religions do not care what Jesus said, or they would not subscribe to that monstrous concept - the "prosperity gospel". Based on Pentecostal logic, a person born into a rich family is righteous while a person born into poverty is being punished for wickedness.

As I say, Christianity as it is practiced today cares NOTHING for the inner person. Just pass on your tithe, don't be gay and don't ever question your religious leaders and you are a model member of the flock. To be fair, coercing people with threats to do, say and think what you demand does show interest in their inner lives. Orwell's Big Brother cared about the inner person in much the same way as religions do.

The only difference between evangelical Christianity and Caesar is that "Caesar" can be voted out. Religion is routinely used as a means of control that works in tandem with governments to achieve shared, desired outcomes. Give to the Church and you give to Caesar. Oh, and may we have your tithe now please? The more you pay, the closer you come to gaining a passage to Heaven! Just as Paula White.
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Fanman »

Nick_A,
So now hopefully it is more clear why Mary poured the nard on Jesus rather than giving it to Judas to give to the poor.

Jesus had evolved "understanding" or the human potential while Judas was limited to dualistic "facts." Mary valued understanding more than facts.
Couldn’t the case be that Mary was just being compassionate? How can you attribute that quality to her on the basis of a single considerate action?

We can say within reason that because of her actions she cared more about Jesus than money, but what is there to show that she valued understanding more than facts?
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

Fanman wrote: June 12th, 2021, 5:57 pm Nick_A,
So now hopefully it is more clear why Mary poured the nard on Jesus rather than giving it to Judas to give to the poor.

Jesus had evolved "understanding" or the human potential while Judas was limited to dualistic "facts." Mary valued understanding more than facts.
Couldn’t the case be that Mary was just being compassionate? How can you attribute that quality to her on the basis of a single considerate action?

We can say within reason that because of her actions she cared more about Jesus than money, but what is there to show that she valued understanding more than facts?
Do you think that the Apostles dropped everything to follow Jesus because he gave good speeches? He had a certain quality of energy around him that when experienced awakened them to also experience what was being lost. When it gives them what their hearts were seeking they followed Jesus like another may follow a pot of gold.

Mary experienced something greater than gold so the best she could do is to pour the nard on Jesus in gratitude for what she experienced.

When Judas was given the sop, he became the natural man so could no longer appreciate Jesus' mission so abandoned quality for an earthly goal. That is why I consider him the first liberal. Judas lost the big picture as was necessary for him to do for the message to enter into culture.

It raises an obvious question for those capable of :conscious contemplation: what is human quality and how can I recognize it and experience it?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Fanman »

Nick_A,
Do you think that the Apostles dropped everything to follow Jesus because he gave good speeches? He had a certain quality of energy around him that when experienced awakened them to also experience what was being lost. When it gives them what their hearts were seeking they followed Jesus like another may follow a pot of gold.

Mary experienced something greater than gold so the best she could do is to pour the nard on Jesus in gratitude for what she experienced.

When Judas was given the sop, he became the natural man so could no longer appreciate Jesus' mission so abandoned quality for an earthly goal. That is why I consider him the first liberal. Judas lost the big picture as was necessary for him to do for the message to enter into culture.

It raises an obvious question for those capable of :conscious contemplation: what is human quality and how can I recognize it and experience it?
I can’t really appreciate the perspective that you're analysing these aspects of scripture from, because the way that you speak portrays a first-person experience, as though you were a fly on the wall, so to speak. The gospels explain the reasons why the events you’re referring to took place and they are meant to be taken literally. That’s why I think that any interpretation of them should remain within the narrative of the story. If you interpret the gospels in any way that suits you they lose the intended meaning.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

Fanman wrote: June 13th, 2021, 5:13 am Nick_A,
Do you think that the Apostles dropped everything to follow Jesus because he gave good speeches? He had a certain quality of energy around him that when experienced awakened them to also experience what was being lost. When it gives them what their hearts were seeking they followed Jesus like another may follow a pot of gold.

Mary experienced something greater than gold so the best she could do is to pour the nard on Jesus in gratitude for what she experienced.

When Judas was given the sop, he became the natural man so could no longer appreciate Jesus' mission so abandoned quality for an earthly goal. That is why I consider him the first liberal. Judas lost the big picture as was necessary for him to do for the message to enter into culture.

It raises an obvious question for those capable of :conscious contemplation: what is human quality and how can I recognize it and experience it?
I can’t really appreciate the perspective that you're analysing these aspects of scripture from, because the way that you speak portrays a first-person experience, as though you were a fly on the wall, so to speak. The gospels explain the reasons why the events you’re referring to took place and they are meant to be taken literally. That’s why I think that any interpretation of them should remain within the narrative of the story. If you interpret the gospels in any way that suits you they lose the intended meaning.
The New Testament as I understand it, is really like high Art. It appeals to a person's level of understanding. It appeals to the literal mind for the literal person. It appeals to the emotions for the emotional person, and it appeals to the rational mind for those who profit from the contemplation of contradictions.

One of my ancestors was an archbishop in the Armenian church so I guess by heredity, if nothing else, it is natural for me to be attracted to the deeper sides of religion..
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Fanman
Posts: 3258
Joined: December 14th, 2011, 9:42 am

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Fanman »

Nick_A,
The New Testament as I understand it, is really like high Art. It appeals to a person's level of understanding. It appeals to the literal mind for the literal person. It appeals to the emotions for the emotional person, and it appeals to the rational mind for those who profit from the contemplation of contradictions.

One of my ancestors was an archbishop in the Armenian church so I guess by heredity, if nothing else, it is natural for me to be attracted to the deeper sides of religion..
Fair enough. It would seem that you see things in a deep way, and it’s not my place to tell you how to interpret things. Maybe you are onto something meaningful.
Theists believe, agnostics ponder and atheists analyse. A little bit of each should get us the right answer.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Belindi »

I agree in this instance with Judas. Mary's extravagance is unlike the poor widow's contribution in Luke . (see below)I prefer Luke's morality to John's. And yet both cases , the Poor Widow's and Mary's are extravagant gestures and both aimed at good causes. What Luke's story has in common with John's story is the virtue of giving without counting the cost, which of course is what Jesus Christ was famous for. In each case the giver was spending her own wealth and not depriving anyone else.

And He looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the treasury, 2 and He saw also a certain poor widow putting in two mites.[a] 3 So He said, “Truly I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all; 4 for all these out of their abundance have put in offerings for God, but she out of her poverty put in all the livelihood that she had.”
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Belindi »

Sy Borg, can you truly not tease out any good morality from the worldly ghastliness of religions?
Fja1
Posts: 9
Joined: June 14th, 2021, 11:50 am

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Fja1 »

Lol, what about Thomas' who was positivist?
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Steve3007 »

Nick_A wrote:True, the pseudo educated know facts so have knowledge. However they lack understanding or the human perspective which enable facts to have meaning the soul craves for so cannot be considered an educated human being.
It is true that there is a difference between collecting facts - "stamp collecting" - and using that accumulated knowledge as part of the process of inferring meaning and gaining what might just qualify as wisdom. But you seem to me to assume, without having looked very deeply, that most everyone except you does that. In so doing, I think you fall for a similar thing yourself.
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14997
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Sy Borg »

Belindi wrote: June 14th, 2021, 6:00 amSy Borg, can you truly not tease out any good morality from the worldly ghastliness of religions?
Heh, for all I know it could all be for the best in the long run. Major churches consist of millions of people, amongst which will be the good, the bad and the ugly. The main thing I like about the religious is they, as with science and philosophy enthusiasts, are more likely than most people to think about the nature of reality beyond the usual human social and professional palavers.

As for the thread, I don't see anything liberal about someone selling out their best friend. It's not conservative either. It's just a low act.

Judas doesn't seem to have been the sharpest tool in the shed. He ratted on his mentor and best friend without thinking for a moment that he might regret it enough to go top himself, which he did. In summary, Judas behaved with all nuance, foresight and logic of a dispensable character in a B-grade movie. Judas reminds me of the astronaut in Prometheus who sees a vicious-looking snakelike thing emerge from alien waters and he decides to pat it like a dog, with predictable consequences.
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

Sy Borg

"He can't see the forest for the trees"

Conservatism, as is the purpose of America, is directed at the big picture. Its purpose is to make freedom possible.

The liberal mind is directed at pragmatism or details it believes improves the situation. Its defect is that it assures the loss of freedom.

The Crucifixion of Christ was a necessity. It was his reason for appearing on the earth. Judas played his part in what is called a conscious drama the purpose of which is to open an inner path for Man's transformation for those capable of it..

Judas' efforts appear low by secular standards but a necessity for the objective inner purpose of actualizing Christianity
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021