Was Judas the first Liberal?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Post Reply
User avatar
Steve3007
Posts: 9444
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes of Cyrene
Location: UK

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Steve3007 »

This is analogous to when people say "Tsk! They can put a man on the moon but they can't get the trains to run on time". Or they point out how many hospitals could have been built using the money spent on seeing whether little helicopters can fly on Mars (They can!). I'm with Jesus on this one (on the principle if not the specifics). Hospitals and punctual trains are boring. Sometimes you have to dare to dream, whether it's making extravagant use of expensive perfume or flying a little helicopter on Mars. Mostly the latter though. Although, for practical purposes, it might be best, if possible, to keep Jesus happy by replacing the perfume with a cheap substitute (analogous to faking the moon landings). Win-win.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 3876
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Steve3007 wrote: June 10th, 2021, 4:52 am This is analogous to when people say "Tsk! They can put a man on the moon but they can't get the trains to run on time". Or they point out how many hospitals could have been built using the money spent on seeing whether little helicopters can fly on Mars (They can!). I'm with Jesus on this one (on the principle if not the specifics). Hospitals and punctual trains are boring. Sometimes you have to dare to dream, whether it's making extravagant use of expensive perfume or flying a little helicopter on Mars. Mostly the latter though. Although, for practical purposes, it might be best, if possible, to keep Jesus happy by replacing the perfume with a cheap substitute (analogous to faking the moon landings). Win-win.
So Jesus liked to have smelly feet? This puts him on a par with Stalin rather than John the Baptist- a true aesthete.
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 146
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 11:27 pm Hi AmericanKestrel and Mystery.
I
College students are taught to believe in equity
Many people believe that “equality” is one of the principles of social justice, but it’s actually “equity.” What’s the difference? Equity takes into account the effects of discrimination and aims for an equal outcome. There’s a graphic that demonstrates this well: three people are trying to see over a fence. One of them is already tall and able to see – they represent the most privileged in society. The other can just barely see and the last person – the most vulnerable in society – can’t see at all. “Equality” gives everyone one box to stand on, even though the tallest person doesn’t need it and it still doesn’t allow the shortest person to see. “Equity” doesn’t give the privileged person any boxes. Instead, the middle person gets one box and the last gets two. Now, everyone is at an equal level.
But it is this minority who support what Jesus introduced into the World that actually do the good for the World. Those who support the efforts of those supporting cancel culture support the diminishing of human being and its quality in favor of the impossibility of social justice. As A K wrote, it is the suffering of samsara. It is cyclical and no amount of PC slogans can change it. Only awakening to conscious evolution can which the literal mind rejects.
Who is the minority, the Tall person,the "privilaged'? To some extent yes, suffering is always with us. But this does not mean, as long as we are transacting with samsara, we don't try to alleviate the suffering. That is part of our karma - practice ahimsa/non-suffering. Conscious evolution requires conscious and mindful actions.
"The Serpent did not lie."
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 2142
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 12:19 pm Is there any way a person can defend Jesus' shocking reply, or should he be cancelled as not PC by the cancel culture?
Is this topic aimed at Judas, Jesus or 'cancel culture'? A casual glance seems to indicate the latter...?

Cancel culture - a good example of democracy in action, whereby people are asked to ignore something/someone if their views/actions are considered unacceptable. Those who do not agree do not comply.

Objections to cancel culture seem similar to objections to 'political correctness', a synonym for "courtesy".
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
Steve3007
Posts: 9444
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes of Cyrene
Location: UK

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Steve3007 »

Pattern-chaser wrote:Is this topic aimed at Judas, Jesus or 'cancel culture'? A casual glance seems to indicate the latter...?
Most people have a hobby horse - a theme that they keep coming back to. It quickly became clear that Nick_A's is cancel culture/wokism/PC etc. Grumbles about one or more of those buzz terms feature in a large proportion of his/her posts. So yes, it seems to me that it's the latter. It's a "it's political correctness gone mad!" theme.
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 146
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

Steve3007 wrote: June 10th, 2021, 10:56 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:Is this topic aimed at Judas, Jesus or 'cancel culture'? A casual glance seems to indicate the latter...?
Most people have a hobby horse - a theme that they keep coming back to. It quickly became clear that Nick_A's is cancel culture/wokism/PC etc. Grumbles about one or more of those buzz terms feature in a large proportion of his/her posts. So yes, it seems to me that it's the latter. It's a "it's political correctness gone mad!" theme.
Gotcha.
"The Serpent did not lie."
User avatar
Steve3007
Posts: 9444
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Eratosthenes of Cyrene
Location: UK

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Steve3007 »

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with hobby horses. I have them myself.
Nick_A
Posts: 2696
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

AmericanKestrel wrote: June 10th, 2021, 9:10 am
Nick_A wrote: June 9th, 2021, 11:27 pm Hi AmericanKestrel and Mystery.
I
College students are taught to believe in equity
Many people believe that “equality” is one of the principles of social justice, but it’s actually “equity.” What’s the difference? Equity takes into account the effects of discrimination and aims for an equal outcome. There’s a graphic that demonstrates this well: three people are trying to see over a fence. One of them is already tall and able to see – they represent the most privileged in society. The other can just barely see and the last person – the most vulnerable in society – can’t see at all. “Equality” gives everyone one box to stand on, even though the tallest person doesn’t need it and it still doesn’t allow the shortest person to see. “Equity” doesn’t give the privileged person any boxes. Instead, the middle person gets one box and the last gets two. Now, everyone is at an equal level.
But it is this minority who support what Jesus introduced into the World that actually do the good for the World. Those who support the efforts of those supporting cancel culture support the diminishing of human being and its quality in favor of the impossibility of social justice. As A K wrote, it is the suffering of samsara. It is cyclical and no amount of PC slogans can change it. Only awakening to conscious evolution can which the literal mind rejects.
Who is the minority, the Tall person,the "privilaged'? To some extent yes, suffering is always with us. But this does not mean, as long as we are transacting with samsara, we don't try to alleviate the suffering. That is part of our karma - practice ahimsa/non-suffering. Conscious evolution requires conscious and mindful actions.
Christianity is often taken superficially and people forget that the world functions in spiritual darkness. It is the same idea as in Plato's cave. We have to start with collective psychological ignorance as our premise for those drawn to understand Christianity. The minority are those beginning to awaken to the reality of the human condition. They support Jesus effort to bring awakening into the world.

Jesus helped Judas to betray him by giving him the sop which allowed Satan to enter and Judas became the "natural" man limited to literal dualistic thinking. From this perspective, Jesus appeared to glorify himself at the expense of the poor.

We forget that we live in Plato's cave or in the darkness of the world which is why this thread is so controversial. If we appreciated our psychological slavery and what is lost by it, there would be nothing controversial.

I don't know if you play any chess but chess is good way to explain this. The majority in the world are bad chess plyers and argue their opinions over the board. They all know the rules of the game but do not "understand" them so cannot find good moves. A good chess player begins by seeing and admitting his ignorance rather than arguing over what he knows. Chess has wins and losses to determine a players understanding. Life doesn't have these obvious wins and losses so people keep on arguing opinions in darkness so everything remains as it is.

Should I support that which offers the inner path to freedom or the worldly ways which sustains the path to psychological slavery? Mary chose inner freedom.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Nick_A
Posts: 2696
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

Steve3007 wrote: June 10th, 2021, 10:56 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:Is this topic aimed at Judas, Jesus or 'cancel culture'? A casual glance seems to indicate the latter...?
Most people have a hobby horse - a theme that they keep coming back to. It quickly became clear that Nick_A's is cancel culture/wokism/PC etc. Grumbles about one or more of those buzz terms feature in a large proportion of his/her posts. So yes, it seems to me that it's the latter. It's a "it's political correctness gone mad!" theme.
Discussing philosophy as a lover of wisdom begins with the "human condition" Who understands its cause or what is required to be less a victim. Nothing to grumble about. Conscious contemplation is becoming a lost skill in public so as the song goes: the beat goes on..

Maybe we can start a separate board on the aesthetic appreciation of the female behind. Then I can introduce another hobby horse.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Posts: 2142
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Nick_A wrote: June 10th, 2021, 11:48 am Discussing philosophy as a lover of wisdom begins with the "human condition" Who understands its cause or what is required to be less a victim.
Surely "what is required to be less a victim" is putting a stop to those who attack these 'victims'? Victim-blaming is a cowardly 'justification' for 'might makes right', isn't it?
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
AmericanKestrel
Posts: 146
Joined: May 22nd, 2021, 6:26 am
Favorite Philosopher: Yagnyavalkya
Location: US

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by AmericanKestrel »

I think the whole episode of Jesus, Martha, and Judas has become an irrelevant back story to a hobbyhorse.
"The Serpent did not lie."
Nick_A
Posts: 2696
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

AmericanKestrel wrote: June 10th, 2021, 2:09 pm I think the whole episode of Jesus, Martha, and Judas has become an irrelevant back story to a hobbyhorse.
Then the recognition of the cause and the future of the human condition has for some, and probably the majority, become irrelevant assuring the wheel of samsara sustaining the cycles of water and peace must continue without interruption
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Nick_A
Posts: 2696
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Nick_A »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 10th, 2021, 12:06 pm
Nick_A wrote: June 10th, 2021, 11:48 am Discussing philosophy as a lover of wisdom begins with the "human condition" Who understands its cause or what is required to be less a victim.
Surely "what is required to be less a victim" is putting a stop to those who attack these 'victims'? Victim-blaming is a cowardly 'justification' for 'might makes right', isn't it?
We must kill those who cause trouble and deserve killing. They interfere with world peace. In the past those who deserve killing have included Jews, Armenians, and fetuses. Why should the peace loving educated have to endure these influences? The good people need a committee of political experts to study the problem.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 10363
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Sy Borg »

Jesus, if he existed, was an early liberal, and certainly not the first.

After millennia of brutality in the Middle East, JC suggested that people treat other with kindness and understanding. In no way does that equate to conservatism. Quite the contrary.
User avatar
Sculptor1
Posts: 3876
Joined: May 16th, 2019, 5:35 am

Re: Was Judas the first Liberal?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Sy Borg wrote: June 11th, 2021, 12:11 am Jesus, if he existed, was an early liberal, and certainly not the first.

After millennia of brutality in the Middle East, JC suggested that people treat other with kindness and understanding. In no way does that equate to conservatism. Quite the contrary.
It's always been a great puzzle to me how so many (especially) American conservatives and racists have all been god-fearing.
It's like they never opened the Bible and read what Jesus said.

"Burn that Cross and hang the "N"". What would Jesus have said?
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021