The Harmony of the Soul

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mystery
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

Post by mystery »

Nick_A wrote: June 14th, 2021, 8:37 pm Hi Mystery. No this isn't like a college course. :) It does seem like our species has been struggling with the same questions. Why do we remain trapped in Plato's cave and governed by imagination. Maybe Plato understood why it is so.

To make it easier I'd like to use this site called "The Art of Manliness" to describe Plato's Chariot analogy which describes the tripartite soul. In previous times pondering the great ideas was considered manly. Is manliness still admired or has it devolved into imagination and arguments over details and political agendas?

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles ... e-chariot/
What is the best way to live and how do I attain excellence? What should I aim for, and what training and practices must I do to achieve those aims?

Such questions have been asked for thousands of years. Few men have grappled with them more, and provided keener insight to the answers, than the philosophers of ancient Greece. In particular, Plato’s vision of the tripartite nature of the soul, or psyche, as explained though the allegory of the chariot, is something I have returned to throughout my life. It furnishes an unmatched symbol of what a man is, can be, and what he must do to bridge those two points and attain andreia (manliness), arête (excellence), and finally eudaimonia (full human flourishing).

In the Phaedrus, Plato (through his mouthpiece, Socrates) shares the allegory of the chariot to explain the tripartite nature of the human soul or psyche.

The chariot is pulled by two winged horses, one mortal and the other immortal.

The mortal horse is deformed and obstinate. Plato describes the horse as a “crooked lumbering animal, put together anyhow…of a dark color, with grey eyes and blood-red complexion; the mate of insolence and pride, shag-eared and deaf, hardly yielding to whip and spur.”

The immortal horse, on the other hand, is noble and game, “upright and cleanly made…his color is white, and his eyes dark; he is a lover of honor and modesty and temperance, and the follower of true glory; he needs no touch of the whip, but is guided by word and admonition only.”

In the driver’s seat is the charioteer, tasked with reining in these disparate steeds, guiding and harnessing them to propel the vehicle with strength and efficiency. The charioteer’s destination? The ridge of heaven, beyond which he may behold the Forms: essences of things like Beauty, Wisdom, Courage, Justice, Goodness — everlasting Truth and absolute Knowledge. These essences nourish the horses’ wings, keeping the chariot in flight.

The charioteer joins a procession of gods, led by Zeus, on this trip into the heavens. Unlike human souls, the gods have two immortal horses to pull their chariots and are able to easily soar above. Mortals, on the other hand, have a much more turbulent ride. The white horse wishes to rise, but the dark horse attempts to pull the chariot back towards the earth. As the horses pull in opposing directions, and the charioteer attempts to get them into sync, his chariot bobs above the ridge of heaven then down again, and he catches glimpses of the great beyond before sinking once more.

If the charioteer is able to behold the Forms, he gets to go on another revolution around the heavens. But if he cannot successfully pilot the chariot, the horses’ wings wither from lack of nourishment, or break off when the horses collide and attack each other, or crash into the chariots of others. The chariot then plummets to earth, the horses lose their wings, and the soul becomes embodied in human flesh. The degree to which the soul falls, and the “rank” of the mortal being it must then be embodied in is based on the amount of Truth it beheld while in the heavens. Rather like the idea of reincarnation. The degree of the fall also determines how long it takes for the horses to regrow their wings and once again take flight. Basically, the more Truth the charioteer beheld on his journey, the shallower his fall, and the easier it is for him to get up and get going again. The regrowth of the wings is hastened by the mortal soul encountering people and experiences that contain touches of divinity, and recall to his memory the Truth he beheld in his preexistence. Plato describes such moments as looking “through the glass dimly” and they hasten the soul’s return to the heavens.
The white horse on the right (our higher parts) is attracted to higher consciousness (the land of the gods) The dark horse on the left representing our lower parts, Plato describes as “crooked lumbering animal, put together anyhow…of a dark color, with grey eyes and blood-red complexion; the mate of insolence and pride, shag-eared and deaf, hardly yielding to whip and spur.” Having become deformed it pulls the white horse and the charioteer down to its level of the earth. If the charioteer can remember the forms that comprise the form of the good, then it can begin to rise again and Man can become conscious.

For those who appreciate the Chariot analogy as describing the human condition, our problem becomes how to heal our sick dark horse so the driver can perform its rightful harmonious function allowing reason to balance spiritedness and appetites into a conscious harmonious whole with knowledge of and able to live by universal laws or the forms rather than arguing over fragments and partial truths as has become the norm. How do we begin?
I am familiar already with that referral link. Some useful content within it including this story you picked. I just said the next idea because I could find nothing wrong with what you have started. Not completely sure I know what your overall point will be but so far the ideas are sound. I don't find so many ppl that have an interest in this topic.

I suspect perhaps at some point we might differ, but for now, I am in synch completely and eager for any additional ideas on this.

I currently think that the solutions are found in understanding biology/evolution/and human chemistry together with as much wisdom as we can find.

We shall greet the dark horse and visit with them as we do the light one, and harness the energy at the same time stay in contact with the white horse. We do not extinguish either as they need each other as they are part of the same.

A man of strength shall harness an inner monster (black horse) and keep it in a cage close to the heart. If when the need arises it can be harnessed with all of its ruthlessness, anger, and strength. It is a part, but always in control by our consciousness. As we look for inspiration perhaps we call out to the light one as it comes around and in an instant, we can see the reasons and purpose and calm.

Harmony is having both available and both under control. Do not allow those horses to choose our paths, we choose and call on them as needed. Not an easy thing to achieve but it can be done.
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

Post by Nick_A »

Mystery
I am familiar already with that referral link. Some useful content within it including this story you picked. I just said the next idea because I could find nothing wrong with what you have started. Not completely sure I know what your overall point will be but so far the ideas are sound. I don't find so many ppl that have an interest in this topic.

I suspect perhaps at some point we might differ, but for now, I am in synch completely and eager for any additional ideas on this.
I currently think that the solutions are found in understanding biology/evolution/and human chemistry together with as much wisdom as we can find.

We shall greet the dark horse and visit with them as we do the light one, and harness the energy at the same time stay in contact with the white horse. We do not extinguish either as they need each other as they are part of the same.

A man of strength shall harness an inner monster (black horse) and keep it in a cage close to the heart. If when the need arises it can be harnessed with all of its ruthlessness, anger, and strength. It is a part, but always in control by our consciousness. As we look for inspiration perhaps we call out to the light one as it comes around and in an instant, we can see the reasons and purpose and calm.

Harmony is having both available and both under control. Do not allow those horses to choose our paths, we choose and call on them as needed. Not an easy thing to achieve but it can be done.
I have a difficult time remembering that I exist as three and not ONE. ONE is human potential. I remember speaking with someone who understands these things and I kept referring to myself as I. He asked which I is being referred to? Is it an I of appetites, values, or reason. I saw then that I am not I. I am a plurality.

Since we agree with the premise, why is it so little known and what prevents it from being accepted? As I understand it, It is far easier to talk bout what people should DO rather than what we ARE. If we avoid efforts to know thyself, and since we are creatures of reaction, nothing changes. In reality we are not "doing" anything. It just happens.

Even though we lack sufficient reason to allow the knowledge of the light horse to influence the dark horse somehow we live with this intolerable situation that results in hypocrisy. The reason is imagination. Simone Weil describes imagination"
Imagination is always the fabric of social life and the dynamic of history. The influence of real needs and compulsions, of real interests and materials, is indirect because the crowd is never conscious of it.

Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life.
We create our reality through imagination making life tolerable for ourselves but denying human conscious potential. This raises the very serious question if it is possible to awaken from the power of self satisfying imagination and what it would require to do so? Can Man as a plurality and like a mixture in opposition with itself, become Man as ONE, or Man as inner unity?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

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Nick, I don't think we should let the light horse affect the dark one. Instead, place the dark one in a cage, and talk with him often. But police ourselves and have a code for a living. Do not make choices due to fear, make them based on reason. But we very much need the dark horse or we become not a man.

It can be done.

The first and critical step is self-control of emotion. We shall choose when to be angry, anger is not the master. We master it and use it when needed.

Imagination is good, but not confusing with gut instinct. Gut instinct is real and comes from our sense perceiving when our mind refuses or can not process it.

What should a person do to be able to identify the three within? And how to choose?
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

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mystery wrote: June 15th, 2021, 9:37 pm Nick, I don't think we should let the light horse affect the dark one. Instead, place the dark one in a cage, and talk with him often. But police ourselves and have a code for a living. Do not make choices due to fear, make them based on reason. But we very much need the dark horse or we become not a man.

It can be done.

The first and critical step is self-control of emotion. We shall choose when to be angry, anger is not the master. We master it and use it when needed.

Imagination is good, but not confusing with gut instinct. Gut instinct is real and comes from our sense perceiving when our mind refuses or can not process it.

What should a person do to be able to identify the three within? And how to choose?
We should also clarify what the white horse represents and what the harmonious soul is. Plato describes it in book 4 of the Republic.

“having first attained to self-mastery and beautiful order within himself, and having harmonized these three principles, the notes or intervals of three terms quite literally the lowest, the highest, and the mean, and all others there may be between them, and having linked and bound all three together and made of himself a unit, one man instead of many, self-controlled and in unison, he should then and then only turn to practice if he find aught to do either in the getting of wealth or the tendance of the body or it may be in political action or private business, in all such doings believing and naming the just and honorable action to be that which preserves and helps to produce this condition of soul.”

When the soul has become balanced and the three parts work together to produce a conscious whole, such a person can "DO" anything but doesn't know what to do. This is what makes something like Scientology so dangerous. What leads the conscious soul? This I believe is one reason Plato stresses knowing what to do or wisdom itself is the last thing learned. If argued prematurely it corrupts the soul.

From the link:
The chariot, charioteer, and white and dark horses symbolize the soul, and its three main components.

The Charioteer represents man’s Reason, the dark horse his appetites, and the white horse his thumos. We’ll explore the nature of thumos in-depth next time, but for now, you can read it simply as “spiritedness.” Another way to label the three elements of soul are as the lover of wisdom (charioteer), the lover of gain (dark horse), and the lover of victory (white horse). Aristotle described the three elements as the contemplative, hedonistic, and political, or, knowledge, pleasure, and honor.

The Greeks saw these elements of soul as physical, almost independent entities, not so much with bodies, but as real forces, like electricity that could move a man to act and think in certain ways. Each element has its own motivations and desires: reason seeks truth and knowledge, the appetites seek food, drink, sex, and material wealth, and thumos seeks glory, honor, and recognition. Plato believed reason has the highest aims, followed by thumos, and then the appetites. But each soul force, if properly harnessed and employed, can help a man become eudaimon.

Reason’s job, with the aid of thumos, is to discern the best aims to pursue, and then train his “horses” to work together towards those aims. As the charioteer, he must have vision and purpose – he must know where he is going — and he must understand the nature and desires of his two horses if he wishes to properly harness their energies. A charioteer can err by either failing to hitch one of the horses to the chariot altogether, or by failing to bridle the horse, and instead letting him run wild. In the latter case, Plato argued, “the best part [Reason] is naturally weak in a man so that it cannot govern and control the brood of beasts within him but can only serve them and can learn nothing but the ways of flattering them.”
You refer to gut instincts. Do you mean objective conscience? I agree. Suppose Plato is right and reason is weak in Man? It gets lost in pettiness so is no longer aware of its attraction to the forms or the source of meaning? This means the first problem is harmonizing the soul to be able to function as a Man and next to become aware of what to do in respect to our connection with the forms or what it means for reason to reflect wisdom.

It doesn't seem that we can do this on our own asleep in Plato's cave so education designed for the individual and also for society seems essential. As you can see the temptation is to corrupt education into indoctrination. So education designed to develop and further the harmonized is easy to contaminate
“[Education] isn’t the craft of putting sight into the soul. Education takes for granted that sight is there but that it isn’t turned the right way or looking where it ought to look, and it tries to redirect it appropriately.”
- The Republic, Book VII
Normally in Plato's cave we are enchanted with the shadows on the wall. They provide meaning and people argue them as their opinions. However Plato asserts that the whole harmonized soul can inwardly turn towards the light and away from the shadows and experience human meaning in relation to the forms in pursuit of truth as opposed to defending opinions.

Is there anything here that you disagree with?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

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I think we are telling the same things but in different ways. So again, no disagreement.

I would not turn from the shadows, but include the shadow in my view. Understand them and then if needed use them. But maybe it is still the same thing as a key point is that we observe and correct and do not fail to hitch the beasts. I call it a cage, instead of a hitch, it is the same.

The person can do much or anything, corruption comes when the monster is not in the cage or we fail to get a console from him, and instead allow him to lead. Even greater corruption comes when we ignore him.

We are a creature of flesh and blood. We are our feelings, but.. we can adjust our feelings but only by managing our actions first. The feeling or emotion is controlled by actions and results. We also can control our emotions, but not adjust them. We can adjust our actions so that our emotions will be different. When we can do that, we can do much but many things we will no longer care to do.

Often in sales work, we use the term education instead of convincing. It is the same. Education is to teach or learn a truth. Truth is dynamic.

Gut instinct is when we know something is or is not but can not explain why we know or how. In some cases it is imagination, in other cases, it is the human body and mind that have processed information in a way that we can not directly access. So we get a feeling about something. When in tune with self it is possible to begin to trust gut instinct, some find it very reliable.

I don't think the three parts work together, that would lead to partially extinguishing one or two of them. We acct as a conductor of an orchestra and manage the different parts. In this way, we seldom or never get stuck in rage, sorrow, or useless glee. I also believe it is difficult for anyone to be interested or get it for this topic unless they have had some experience they would like to avoid again.
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

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A fine post mystery. I'd like to ask you two questions about emotion.
We are a creature of flesh and blood. We are our feelings, but.. we can adjust our feelings but only by managing our actions first. The feeling or emotion is controlled by actions and results. We also can control our emotions, but not adjust them. We can adjust our actions so that our emotions will be different. When we can do that, we can do much but many things we will no longer care to do.
The first deals with how imagination makes our inner oppositions tolerable. One result is the creation of imaginary fears. How much of a person's life is controlled by imaginary fear? How much of mob rule is guided as a response to fear? Yet this fear is imaginary and we become afraid of and controlled by shadows. We know that society maintains its control through imaginary fears. Simone Weil wrote:
"A test of what is real is that it is hard and rough. Joys are found in it, not pleasure. What is pleasant belongs to dreams."
-- Gravity and Grace
Simone invites us to experience our inner contradictions rather then avoiding them and make us fall victim to imagination and the loss of manliness.

The question of manliness is my next question to you. this is not to put you on the spot since we are in the same position. It does concern the white horse.

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/got-thumos/
The Greeks believed thumos was essential to andreia — manliness. It is mentioned over seven hundred times in the Iliad and the Odyssey. Philosopher Allan Bloom called it “the central natural passion in men’s souls.” If we have lost the ability to recognize, appreciate, cultivate, and utilize one of the three main components of our nature, we should not be surprised when negative consequences follow. When one hears of a lack of virility, fight, energy, and ambition in modern men, of a malaise of spirit that has settled over our sex, what is really being spoken of is a shortage of thumos. For millions of men, thumos lies dormant, an energy source left untapped. It is as if each of us had a potential Kentucky Derby-caliber thoroughbred waiting in the stable, ready and eager to run, but we kept him locked away, only trotting him out for pony rides at children’s birthday parties.
A harmonized soul is free from the debilitating effects of imagination so is able "TO DO." Yet the corrupted nature of our appetites or dark horse not only denies wisdom but thumos to the white horse, as an expression of wisdom. A man believes himself God seeking to dominate the earth as opposed to serving universal necessities.

A Man needs thumos but at the same time has to awaken to what it means to be a Man.
As we mentioned last time, Plato envisioned the three components of one’s soul as independent entities. Thumos was thought to be the most independent of the bunch. The Greeks believed it was found in animals, humans, and the gods. Thumos could act separately from you, or in cooperation with you — as an accompaniment, tool, or motivation behind some action. Because it was a distinct part of yourself, you could talk to it, tell it to endure, to be strong, or to be young (thumos was associated with the passion and power of youth, but older people could have it too). In the Iliad, Achilles speaks “to his great-hearted thumos” when anxious about the fate of Patroculus. He also delights his thumos by playing the lyre.

The Greek philosopher Empedocles called thumos the “seat of life.” If it left you entirely, you would faint, and permanent separation meant death.
Thumos could be essential for creating a tyrant but at the same is a necessary part of the philosopher king. So the budding philosopher king after becoming able TO DO must "feel" what to DO so as to be worthy of the name MAN.

So IYO assuming that the world seeks to manipulate thumos or aspiration into a devolved form, how do you understand thumos and how it relates not only to Man's ability to DO but also inwardly knowing what to DO or a man of wisdom? Appetites have devolved the white horse. Can we remind it of what has been forgotten or its purpose?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

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Nick_A wrote: June 17th, 2021, 11:59 am A fine post mystery. I'd like to ask you two questions about emotion.
We are a creature of flesh and blood. We are our feelings, but.. we can adjust our feelings but only by managing our actions first. The feeling or emotion is controlled by actions and results. We also can control our emotions, but not adjust them. We can adjust our actions so that our emotions will be different. When we can do that, we can do much but many things we will no longer care to do.
The first deals with how imagination makes our inner oppositions tolerable. One result is the creation of imaginary fears. How much of a person's life is controlled by imaginary fear? How much of mob rule is guided as a response to fear? Yet this fear is imaginary and we become afraid of and controlled by shadows. We know that society maintains its control through imaginary fears. Simone Weil wrote:
"A test of what is real is that it is hard and rough. Joys are found in it, not pleasure. What is pleasant belongs to dreams."
-- Gravity and Grace
Simone invites us to experience our inner contradictions rather then avoiding them and make us fall victim to imagination and the loss of manliness.

The question of manliness is my next question to you. this is not to put you on the spot since we are in the same position. It does concern the white horse.

https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/got-thumos/
The Greeks believed thumos was essential to andreia — manliness. It is mentioned over seven hundred times in the Iliad and the Odyssey. Philosopher Allan Bloom called it “the central natural passion in men’s souls.” If we have lost the ability to recognize, appreciate, cultivate, and utilize one of the three main components of our nature, we should not be surprised when negative consequences follow. When one hears of a lack of virility, fight, energy, and ambition in modern men, of a malaise of spirit that has settled over our sex, what is really being spoken of is a shortage of thumos. For millions of men, thumos lies dormant, an energy source left untapped. It is as if each of us had a potential Kentucky Derby-caliber thoroughbred waiting in the stable, ready and eager to run, but we kept him locked away, only trotting him out for pony rides at children’s birthday parties.
A harmonized soul is free from the debilitating effects of imagination so is able "TO DO." Yet the corrupted nature of our appetites or dark horse not only denies wisdom but thumos to the white horse, as an expression of wisdom. A man believes himself God seeking to dominate the earth as opposed to serving universal necessities.

A Man needs thumos but at the same time has to awaken to what it means to be a Man.
As we mentioned last time, Plato envisioned the three components of one’s soul as independent entities. Thumos was thought to be the most independent of the bunch. The Greeks believed it was found in animals, humans, and the gods. Thumos could act separately from you, or in cooperation with you — as an accompaniment, tool, or motivation behind some action. Because it was a distinct part of yourself, you could talk to it, tell it to endure, to be strong, or to be young (thumos was associated with the passion and power of youth, but older people could have it too). In the Iliad, Achilles speaks “to his great-hearted thumos” when anxious about the fate of Patroculus. He also delights his thumos by playing the lyre.

The Greek philosopher Empedocles called thumos the “seat of life.” If it left you entirely, you would faint, and permanent separation meant death.
Thumos could be essential for creating a tyrant but at the same is a necessary part of the philosopher king. So the budding philosopher king after becoming able TO DO must "feel" what to DO so as to be worthy of the name MAN.

So IYO assuming that the world seeks to manipulate thumos or aspiration into a devolved form, how do you understand thumos and how it relates not only to Man's ability to DO but also inwardly knowing what to DO or a man of wisdom? Appetites have devolved the white horse. Can we remind it of what has been forgotten or its purpose?
Thumos, this is a man thing. A modern term for it is Masculinity albeit not to be confused with Macho. I don't appreciate Macho, but Masculine is of tremendous value to all humans both men and women together with children. Masculine is for men, women can also achieve it but when that happens balance is broken badly and great misery will follow.

We must come to peace with our biology because we can only be alive within our bodies. Our body has much control of us, in ways most do not fathom. The chemicals that run in our body that fuel our emotions are unstoppable unless they are removed...

Masculine peace (Thumos) for a man is when he can accept the truth of himself and laugh. He must accept that he is a sexual being and that is where much of his inner strength is from. Fear is good, but understand it as a road sign, and cultivate the monster in the cage so that if let loose he can scare the fear away. Others will not be afraid but instead feel safe when they are present. Much more, but let me stop at that point and see how/or in what ways we may disagree.

Nick, I only now think about the term Thumos, so feel free to educate me on its propper meaning in case I missed something.
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

Post by Nick_A »

Mystery
We must come to peace with our biology because we can only be alive within our bodies. Our body has much control of us, in ways most do not fathom. The chemicals that run in our body that fuel our emotions are unstoppable unless they are removed...

Masculine peace (Thumos) for a man is when he can accept the truth of himself and laugh. He must accept that he is a sexual being and that is where much of his inner strength is from. Fear is good, but understand it as a road sign, and cultivate the monster in the cage so that if let loose he can scare the fear away. Others will not be afraid but instead feel safe when they are present. Much more, but let me stop at that point and see how/or in what ways we may disagree.

Nick, I only now think about the term Thumos, so feel free to educate me on its propper meaning in case I missed something.
You understand thumos for our lower natures but do you see how thumos effects our higher parts and our potential for consciousness?

As I understand it, the basic problem causing the human condition is that appetites or the lower parts of the human organism dominate reason. I agree that we underestimate how much of our lives are governed by the habits of our bodies. Reason becomes the means to justify our appetites rather than the dominating need for wisdom or the higher part of the collective human organism. It has been said that we live upside down. Where our bodies should be governed by reason, reason is governed by the desires and habits of our bodies.

The white horse representing thumos I understand to be aspiration, the desire for victory or to be the best. We can later on discuss how society seeks to destroy thumos in Man in order to deny individuality

Normally the desire to win, to be the best, is limited to our appetites. This is the way of the world and its need for prestige. Esoteric Christianity and plato have taught me that the higher aspiration is the higher drive for a Man to be Master or himself so he can receive from above and acquire the wisdom the harmonized soul is able to experience.

Matthew 16:26
What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?
This does seem to be the human problem: what to aspire to. Thumos can drive us to win the world or become master of ourselves in order to serve a higher universal purpose.

I'm not asking you to believe it since it has religious overtones; but do you see the logic of it? The tripartite soul is pulled by our attachments to the world yet at the same time a weaker side of ourselves is called to overcome the world in order to experience what plato called the GOOD. If true, the lower parts or the appetites can be educated so as to be attracted to wisdom and experience human meaning and purpose rather than fight so hard against it. At the same time reason can open to the path leading to wisdom as opposed to supporting partial truths and defending self justifying opinions. Is this possible?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

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Religious overtones are ok, I recognize them and they have meaning. I have read and studied a variety of texts including the common Christian bible. One of my favorite parts in regards to thinking is Ecclesiastes.
--


The lower parts (the foundation) can be accepted and even appreciated.

I am not sure of the upper parts. Not even sure they are needed. The core of the foundation is itself already a lot.

Some men come to a juncture or a signpost, one direction is greed the other is (not greed). Being not greedy does not mean to not grow and accumulate but it does mean to not harm others physically or psychologically if it can be avoided. Sometimes it can not be avoided when we are responsible for more than one thing because no choice is a choice. When we take something by force from another simply because we can and want it, that is greed. It takes wisdom to see all the paths of greed, often times the taking is hidden behind some smokescreen and not clear unless we look. Not looking is also greed but is often the excuse of hypocrites.

I don't know where greed fits on the lower to higher path, but it is the one that limits us.

I have a small libary of reading about different parts of topics like this, although never yet to study the classic ones that you know.
For this, I could suggest the book/work by Robert Bly, Iron John. I don't think it answers questions so well, but does help to set the path of thinking.

Our feelings from our core are... all-powerful within us. We must accept and join with them for without them we are not. No matter how much we learn interesting and well-thought-out ideas of how things should work we are still trapped in our body and must address and accept it, as men that includes a healthy bucket of testosterone. Women can not ever understand because they are not men, they will look to stop men from being men if they can in an attempt to make things even. Even was never the plan, equal value yes but even no. Women's path is equally challenging but different.

With a solid foundation and core, we can build all sorts of ideas and stuff up that will work.

Higher learning can in some cases separate us from the core.
--
Yes, it is possible to improve.
Nick_A
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

Post by Nick_A »

Mystery
The lower parts (the foundation) can be accepted and even appreciated.

I am not sure of the upper parts. Not even sure they are needed. The core of the foundation is itself already a lot.
The vertical expression of Tripartite soul by definition includes the higher and lower parts. Simone Weil described the human organism as like a green plant. The lower parts are nourished by the soil or by culture in our case. A healthy culture including higher values feeds the human organism.

Our higher parts are like the leaves of the plant. They are fed by the sun for the plants and also by the light of consciousness for our higher parts.

A healthy human organism is fed by culture and opening to receive higher consciousness in the form of grace in order to be nourished by it. Limiting ourselves to our lower parts assures Man remains a creature of reaction. Conscious action and awakening requires help from above.
Our feelings from our core are... all-powerful within us. We must accept and join with them for without them we are not. No matter how much we learn interesting and well-thought-out ideas of how things should work we are still trapped in our body and must address and accept it, as men that includes a healthy bucket of testosterone. Women can not ever understand because they are not men, they will look to stop men from being men if they can in an attempt to make things even. Even was never the plan, equal value yes but even no. Women's path is equally challenging but different.
Do you recognize the difference between “feelings” we are born with and negative emotions which are learned and acquired in life?

As I understand it, Man is born with the capacity for faith, hope, and love, which translates into feelings. We learn negative emotions like greed yet they do govern our lives. If we were born with them our situation would be hopeless but the fact that negative emotions are learned is our saving grace.

Can we outgrow greed without losing our balls? Can testosterone also be used for manifesting compassion along with our earthly needs?

I remember reading Iron John. It is a good book. The crime against boys and the attack on humos is IMO an utter disgrace.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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mystery
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

Post by mystery »

Nick, often the smallest child will show greed until they are corrected. I have also seen a small child show empathy without being taught the same.

Faith, hope, and love are a layer above the core and to function needs to use the lower layer services.

For example, love will use attraction, lust, hormones, and other chemicals. If those chemicals change the love is gone. Understanding things in the lowest layer helps to manage our actions so that we get results that make us feel good. Love is not a special separate service, it is an abstraction of more basic things. Only in our imagination is it something pure and good without blemish. If we get in touch with the lower services the upper ones become less important because we can see through them to the truth. The truth is the action/reactions of the core.

Yes, masculinity fueled by testosterone can interface with compassion and tenacity. The calming of the mind is important, only by embracing who we are can we become calm enough to perceive truth. We must keep a part of ourselves as a self-guide, aware of who we are and what we are doing. It is separate from our actual doing.

Yes, we can turn from greed, we must be able to first be calm with ourselves and satisfied with what we are. At the same time, we can improve, but not from fear; instead from a desire to achieve. Greed comes from not being satisfied, which in turn comes from rejection(many different types of rejection). The solution is to not be dependant on external approval, easier said than done.

Higher consciousness is also a function of lower-layer services. The value of the higher consciousness is much, but it also like love is an abstraction above core services.
Nick_A
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

Post by Nick_A »

Mystery
For example, love will use attraction, lust, hormones, and other chemicals. If those chemicals change the love is gone. Understanding things in the lowest layer helps to manage our actions so that we get results that make us feel good. Love is not a special separate service, it is an abstraction of more basic things. Only in our imagination is it something pure and good without blemish. If we get in touch with the lower services the upper ones become less important because we can see through them to the truth. The truth is the action/reactions of the core.
It is also possible that as we open to the higher, the lower loses its appeal? Consider Diotima's ladder of love
Diotima maps out the stages in this ascent in terms of what sort of beautiful thing the lover desires and is drawn toward.

A particular beautiful body. This is the starting point, when love, which by definition is a desire for something we don’t have, is first aroused by the sight of individual beauty.

All beautiful bodies. According to standard Platonic doctrine, all beautiful bodies share something in common, something the lover eventually comes to recognize. When he does recognize this, he moves beyond a passion for any particular body.

Beautiful souls. Next, the lover comes to realize that spiritual and moral beauty matters much more than physical beauty. So he will now yearn for the sort of interaction with noble characters that will help him become a better person.

Beautiful laws and institutions. These are created by good people (beautiful souls) and are the conditions which foster moral beauty.

The beauty of knowledge. The lover turns his attention to all kinds of knowledge, but particularly, in the end to philosophical understanding. (Although the reason for this turn isn’t stated, it is presumably because philosophical wisdom is what underpins good laws and institutions.)

Beauty itself – that is, the Form of the Beautiful. This is described as "an everlasting loveliness which neither comes nor goes, which neither flowers nor fades." It is the very essence of beauty, "subsisting of itself and by itself in an eternal oneness." And every particular beautiful thing is beautiful because of its connection to this Form. The lover who has ascended the ladder apprehends the Form of Beauty in a kind of vision or revelation, not through words or in the way that other sorts of more ordinary knowledge are known.
As a person ascends the ladder of love do they learn by experience or by remembering what was always known? Simone Weil's description of the human organism as a plant suggests that animal love is the norm but it is possible a person can remember (anamnesis) conscious love revealed by higher consciousness. Do you see any sense in this perspective?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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mystery
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

Post by mystery »

Nick_A wrote: June 22nd, 2021, 12:06 am Mystery
For example, love will use attraction, lust, hormones, and other chemicals. If those chemicals change the love is gone. Understanding things in the lowest layer helps to manage our actions so that we get results that make us feel good. Love is not a special separate service, it is an abstraction of more basic things. Only in our imagination is it something pure and good without blemish. If we get in touch with the lower services the upper ones become less important because we can see through them to the truth. The truth is the action/reactions of the core.
It is also possible that as we open to the higher, the lower loses its appeal? Consider Diotima's ladder of love
Diotima maps out the stages in this ascent in terms of what sort of beautiful thing the lover desires and is drawn toward.

A particular beautiful body. This is the starting point, when love, which by definition is a desire for something we don’t have, is first aroused by the sight of individual beauty.

All beautiful bodies. According to standard Platonic doctrine, all beautiful bodies share something in common, something the lover eventually comes to recognize. When he does recognize this, he moves beyond a passion for any particular body.

Beautiful souls. Next, the lover comes to realize that spiritual and moral beauty matters much more than physical beauty. So he will now yearn for the sort of interaction with noble characters that will help him become a better person.

Beautiful laws and institutions. These are created by good people (beautiful souls) and are the conditions which foster moral beauty.

The beauty of knowledge. The lover turns his attention to all kinds of knowledge, but particularly, in the end to philosophical understanding. (Although the reason for this turn isn’t stated, it is presumably because philosophical wisdom is what underpins good laws and institutions.)

Beauty itself – that is, the Form of the Beautiful. This is described as "an everlasting loveliness which neither comes nor goes, which neither flowers nor fades." It is the very essence of beauty, "subsisting of itself and by itself in an eternal oneness." And every particular beautiful thing is beautiful because of its connection to this Form. The lover who has ascended the ladder apprehends the Form of Beauty in a kind of vision or revelation, not through words or in the way that other sorts of more ordinary knowledge are known.
As a person ascends the ladder of love do they learn by experience or by remembering what was always known? Simone Weil's description of the human organism as a plant suggests that animal love is the norm but it is possible a person can remember (anamnesis) conscious love revealed by higher consciousness. Do you see any sense in this perspective?
Nick, I wish to learn how what you tell is the truth. I currently don't think so.

I have interacted with many different ppl from different walks of life. Rich, poor, weak, strong, men, woman, all races, I have been blessed... to have a very full life so far. Experience has taught me that things are as I see them. But even now I still seek if something can be learned. Part of that process is to try to share real truths and not politically correct things.

What you tell would be a very desirable situation. I can recall clearly several times in my life getting to a point of knowing for sure that higher love is the ultimate goal and strength of all things. And that it was true. I spent time understanding how it was true and did enjoy the feeling of glee and satisfaction of the truth. That was a good time, and I am very grateful to have experienced it.

Perhaps if we could ascend in some way and leave our physical body behind it could be so, that would be nice.

As it is we are a prisoner of flesh, the best we can do is improve in any way we can and train our mind to enjoy the moment.

The glitch is mother nature and evolution. Those do not negotiate they dictate how we will be. The best we can do is comprehend (comprehending those things is a huge task). It is possible to stunt or kill the primal drive in us and then to shift focus to other things, in that moment we become something different. Most men would prefer to be the 25 years old version of themself instead of the 100 years old version for these exact reasons.

When the primal drives are dead or diminished we can then focus on other things, often the first thing is to try to get those primal drives back. Until then we must accept and manage not who, but what we are.

Anamnesis is a new word for me, for me, I would think that any previous situation must have been worse for me than the current one. Probably a whole other topic.

I have never seen a group of real ppl that are beautiful in all ways. It is only a wish, being trapped in that wish will limit us and prevent us from dealing with reality. Disney made a fortune selling beauty and fantasy.

Are there any examples?
Nick_A
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Re: The Harmony of the Soul

Post by Nick_A »

“Give me beauty in the inward soul; may the outward and the inward man be at one.” Socrates

The outward man is our personality. It is indoctrinated to interact with the external world and is how we define ourselves.

The inner man is qualities and characteristics we are born with including our talents and tendencies.

It does happen that a 50 year old person can have a 5 year old essence within him. This is not unusual for a person dominated by the whims of our lower dark horse. The inner man is gradually starved out and Jesus referred to them when he said "let the dead bury their dead." A person can be active in the world yet dead inside.

Jacob Needleman wrote a book about this situation: "Money and the Meaning of Life" https://www.gurdjieff.org/needleman4.htm
Since the beginning of recorded history, man has been haunted by the intimation that he lives in a world of mere appearances. In every teaching and spiritual philosophy of the past we find the idea that whatever happens to us, for good or ill, is brought about by deeper forces behind the world that seems so real to us. We are further told that this real world is not accessible to the senses or understandable by the ordinary mind.

But, and this is a point that is not usually understood, we live in a world of inner appearances as well. We are not what we perceive ourselves to be. There is another identity, our real self, hidden behind the self that we believe ourselves to be.

It is only through awakening to this deeper self within that we can penetrate behind the veil of appearances and make contact with a truer world outside of ourselves. It is because we live on the surface of ourselves that we live on the surface of the greater world, never participating—except in rare moments which do not last and which are not understood—in the wholeness of reality.

It is this all-important second aspect of the ancient wisdom, the aspect that speaks of our inner world, that modern thought has been blind to. And the question about the meaning of life is inextricably linked to the need for contact with the real self beneath the surface of our everyday thoughts, emotions, and sensations.

Without this contact, the external world of appearances assumes for us the proportions of an overwhelmingly compelling force. We cannot see the real world because we are not in contact with the deeper powers of thought and sensing within ourselves that could perceive it. Because of this, it is inevitable that we experience the external world as the strongest force in our lives. This is the meaning and the origin of materialism.

The error, or, to use Christian language, the “sin” of materialism has at its root nothing to do with greed or possessiveness. Nor does it involve, at its root, some philosophical view about matter and spirit in their usual meanings. No, the error of materialism is an error of reality perception, based on lack of experiential contact with the inner world. What we know as greed and possessiveness, with their attendant traits of cruelty and human exploitation, are results of this ignorance of the inner world. We turn to the superficially perceived outer world for that which can only be obtained through deep access to the inner self. Materialism is not a “sin”; it is a mistake..............................
We know how the world nourishes and creates our personalities. But how do we nourish the inner man and allow it to develop so a 50 year old personality could reflect a 50 year old harmonized soul?

This is the essential problem for humanity as I understand it for a world that doesn't recognize the inner man and only seeks to indoctrinate personalities into what Plato called the Great Beast.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Alkis
Posts: 17
Joined: June 21st, 2021, 5:47 pm

Re: The Harmony of the Soul

Post by Alkis »

Nick_A wrote: June 12th, 2021, 12:13 pm Experience has proven that our species as a whole does not seek freedom from the cave and rather attacks and even kills those like Socrates who suggest awakening
Just a remark: Socrates did not teach or suggested "awakening", esp. not in the sense of the term as it is used in modern philosophy. Socrates taught about reasoning, critical thinking, virtues, morality (ethics). His path was a quest of knowledge and wisdom. Plato's Cave Allegory was about turning illusions, imagination, opinions, ignorance and (sensory) appearances into knowledge.
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