Deterioration of the human mind

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Gee
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Gee »

Skyblack wrote: June 18th, 2021, 2:24 pm
This is absolute nonsense. Most, if not all, facts actually require interpretation -- without that interpretation nothing makes any sense.

The glass is half full -- fact. The glass is half empty -- fact.

If you think that I am wrong, then explain about facts that do not require interpretation.

Gee
Well....i could go ahead and question the level of sense available to the mind that has posted the above but that would be rather silly.
It does not surprise that you might be "rather silly". You have decided to "go ahead" and question the level of sense available to me, but you have not decided to "go ahead" and answer my challenge to produce your evidence. Attack the person rather than the idea? Is that your concept of philosophy?
Skyblack wrote: June 18th, 2021, 2:24 pm But to answer you question, if you read the OP minus your biased reactions then you will find the words "without bias" have been used. The OP is pointing to an interpenetration free from subjective bias which may stem form one's affiliations, one's conditioning , one's beliefs so on and so forth.
So you are claiming that you can get an unbiased opinion from a subject, who does not have a subjective, and therefore unbiased, opinion? You are perhaps looking for an objective subjective opinion???
Skyblack wrote: June 18th, 2021, 2:24 pm Furthermore, there is another kind of observation where the word is not the thing. The word glass is not the actual glass. So it's possible to observe the glass without the word and the associated interpretations. But that kind of observation is beyond the pay-grade of a conditioned reactive mind.
You are moving goal posts here. We were talking about "facts" not words or observations. Look up the word, fact. It is a word that science uses, and they are pretty fussy about what is a fact and what is not a fact. Are you sure that you are not experiencing a "deterioration of the human mind"?

Gee
Skyblack
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Skyblack »

Gee

I was meeting you on your questioning my sense when you used the word "nonsense" in your post, giving the first indication that you might be one those silly conditioned reactive fellas, or perhaps a troll.

From your latest post i can see you lack the qualities required to come to a dialogue such inquiring spirit and humility, therefore see no need to continue any more. I know you will need to have the last word so go for it and carry on.
AverageBozo
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by AverageBozo »

Skyblack wrote: June 18th, 2021, 11:42 am
So everyone has made the same observations as you except those whose observations are deficient?
So everyone has made the same observations as you except those whose observations are deficient? A bold claim, indeed.
…..ignore…..
No, everyone has the potential to make the observations mentioned in OP. Whether they do or not will depend on how free their minds are from the deteriorating effects of what has been said in OP.

We can add, knee jerk reactions, fixating on the person instead of the issue being discussed, as other obvious signs of such deterioration.
So, everyone has the potential to make observations the same as one person does, but if they don’t realize this potential by freeing their minds, their observations and conclusions are wrong.

So, in other words, everyone who agrees with the one person’s observations and conclusions has freed their minds and made the right observations and conclusions.

And everyone who doesn’t agree is wrong.

Because this person makes these tenuous claims, all that follows these claims is equally tenuous. To focus on an issue, as a logician I attempt to validate the claims preceding the issue. In this case they are not valid.

The matter of logic is much the same as the matter of spelling and grammar. It is assumed by most that statements are logically sound. As such, the soundness does not make an argument, however the lack of soundness reveals a mind that pays little attention to details, and weakens the credibility of all claims.

I think this explains why I appear to be focused on the author of a post, when I am actually focused on the logic.
Skyblack
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Skyblack »

So, everyone has the potential to make observations the same as one person does, but if they don’t realize this potential by freeing their minds, their observations and conclusions are wrong.

So, in other words, everyone who agrees with the one person’s observations and conclusions has freed their minds and made the right observations and conclusions.

And everyone who doesn’t agree is wrong.

Because this person makes these tenuous claims, all that follows these claims is equally tenuous. To focus on an issue, as a logician I attempt to validate the claims preceding the issue. In this case they are not valid.

The matter of logic is much the same as the matter of spelling and grammar. It is assumed by most that statements are logically sound. As such, the soundness does not make an argument, however the lack of soundness reveals a mind that pays little attention to details, and weakens the credibility of all claims.

I think this explains why I appear to be focused on the author of a post, when I am actually focused on the logic.
From the illogical strawman response above it's quite obvious your attention is focused on the person and not on the matter. The lack of credibility was obvious in your very first post. This defect in attention which is one of the character defects of a deteriorating mind, seems to prevent such mind in giving attention to details.

Whereas the truth of the matter is, as obvious, if one pays attention to the details, no claims have been made and no authority has been asserted. No questions of agreement or diaagreement have been raised by the OP. The OP has simply unpacked a situation.

OP is not interested in educating how contextual rebuttals should be given unless asked. Op understands the value in the correct usage of energy and time. If there is nothing else then please carry on.
Skyblack
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Skyblack »

I think most of us would agree that we have problems, and that a lot of them are in effect self-inflicted wounds. We do turn to crappy solutions to cope, and some of these 'solutions' might seem to be our only serious problems if we were able to look at ourselves objectively. However, I don't know that you did (or even could) make the case that we are deteriorating, or getting worse, that we are perhaps turning away from reality and toward the crappy coping methods any more than people did in the past.
The quality of the brain when there was no television , no internet, and the idea of instant gratifications was absent, would logically be different. Any person that has experienced the advents of these, witnessed the changes, and a has good memory can attest to these differences in brain quality (not as a scientist but more as based on common sense, known facts, and logic) There is certainly a difference between watching TV and reading a book for one's entertainment or to collect information. The latter engages the brain/mind in more ways than the former. And please note the OP isn't talking about any coping skills.
The only noticeable difference seems to be that we have greater raw knowledge. We have more to turn away from, and perhaps more ways to turn from it. But, this process has been going on for as long as we are able to look back. People seem to prefer easy answers to real but difficult solutions, and both seem to have been with us all along. They had beer and preachers; we have xanax and Dr. Phil. Maybe they didn't understand psychology on the same terms centuries ago. Yet, something like stoic philosophy differs little in content and effect from cognitive behavioral therapy, which is rooted in stoic philosophy. So, arguably, real answers have been within our reach all along as well.

Civilization was founded on beer, which is the real reason we became farmers. Before we farmed we abused poppies. We have religion and politics going back about as far as recorded history. So, it's not a question of whether or not we've always had these issues or these ineffective ways of trying to cope. The only point I question is your claim that we are deteriorating. Do you have any basis for this claim?
See above response and again, OP isn't talking about coping.
Skyblack
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Skyblack »

Papus79
I'm going to slightly disagree on this point - status is a combination of being able to find a partner with good genes and having your kids well positioned in society. In that sense it's deeply practical, and it's built on zero-sum battles where a certain large percentage of humanity always has to be failed on a distribution curve. This is part of why polygamous cultures tend to be considerably more violent.
The OP goes into much deeper issues than what you are indicating.
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Papus79
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Papus79 »

Skyblack wrote: June 18th, 2021, 4:56 pm
I'm going to slightly disagree on this point - status is a combination of being able to find a partner with good genes and having your kids well positioned in society. In that sense it's deeply practical, and it's built on zero-sum battles where a certain large percentage of humanity always has to be failed on a distribution curve. This is part of why polygamous cultures tend to be considerably more violent.
The OP goes into much deeper issues than what you are indicating.
Your OP is on a topic that I've been observing all of my life and which has caused a lot of pain. It doesn't go leagues deeper than my understanding, I'm just not sure you're giving due credit to how profound an issue the Darwinian survival game is.
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Skyblack
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Skyblack »

Your OP is on a topic that I've been observing all of my life and which has caused a lot of pain. It doesn't go leagues deeper than my understanding, I'm just not sure you're giving due credit to how profound an issue the Darwinian survival game is.

Alright, so that we are on the same page, can you point out what the OP is talking about. To make it easier you can explain or simply copy and post the OP and embolden the parts that you think are some of the core points.

And i don't disagree on the "pain" part or doubt your explorations. I usually reserve my doubts for later and it's evidence based.
Skyblack
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Skyblack »

Sorry i forgot to italicize your words. For the record, the first para in above post are your words.
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LuckyR
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by LuckyR »

AverageBozo wrote: June 18th, 2021, 10:06 am
Skyblack wrote: June 18th, 2021, 2:04 am Surely these are factual observations on how we function, and available to all. But whether the observer has worked on clearing observation from the defects listed in op, so as to get an accurate perception, is of course a separate matter.
So everyone has made the same observations as you except those whose observations are deficient? A bold claim, indeed.
Funny how the idea that humans are deficient commonly eminates from the One Knowledgeable Human for whom the idea somehow doesn't apply.
"As usual... it depends."
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Papus79
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Papus79 »

Skyblack wrote: June 18th, 2021, 6:21 pm Alright, so that we are on the same page, can you point out what the OP is talking about. To make it easier you can explain or simply copy and post the OP and embolden the parts that you think are some of the core points.
No idea what to expect here but okay.
When one looks at the human condition one finds the human surrounded by problems. In order to cope with these problems the human looks at various solutions promised by ideologies, religions, politics, economics, science, and so forth.
Politics is seeking answer by changes in laws and social power, ideology is an extension of politics typically.
Religion is looking to either deities or cosmic structure, metaphysical integration of some kind.
Science is attempting to solve problems with technological leverage or, sometimes in the other direction, using it to triage the map of reality.

People are looking outside of themselves to authority figures and groups.
While few of man’s problems are practical but most of them are psychological. An example to better understand the distinction: If one does not have the basic needs of food, shelter, and clothes, this a practical problem.
Could exchange 'practical' for 'logistic' - ie. no food, no water - it's a fatal problem no matter what your psychological disposition nor your degree of spirituality or personal integrity.
However, If one is psychologically insecure because they aren’t “comparable” or “better” than the Jones, then this a psychological problem.
Your claim here, unlike the practical or logistical problems, this sort of competition and abreaction to Girardian desire mapping is voluntary and signals misplaced priorities and poverty of imagination and / or self-discipline.
In his constant effort to fix his problems by looking into the solutions proposed by the various brokers (Secular or Religious), it is clear the human has descended into a pattern of conformity, thus making the mind and the heart dull, insensitive, sluggish, blind, unresponsive, almost lifeless. A second hand machine at best, that constantly breaks down.
The claim here seems to be that by looking to other people for prepackaged solutions from authoritative sources people have become (insert your list of adjectives).
It seems the human is not capable of looking at anything with fresh eyes or to adequately respond to the challenges life throws at him/her. Every new moment is met with the weight of the past and through the acquired filters. Thus all responses are partial and fragmentary.
The claim is that people either don't want to try on novel lenses for solving current problems or, alternately, may even want to bring a chip on their shoulder to the current moment as it's comfortable.
How can such a burdened human ever be free to meet a new unknown moment. How will such a weighed consciousness penetrate the tenuous workings of their own mind, and that of the universe.
Claim - people who are deep in the problems listed above aren't in a place where they can self-examine their way out, nor look to the universe, new discoveries, depth psychology, occultism / spiritual practice, etc. to find their way out.


Did I steel man that effectively nor no?
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Skyblack
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Skyblack »

Funny how the idea that humans are deficient commonly eminates from the One Knowledgeable Human for whom the idea somehow doesn't apply.
It is indeed funny how a reactive mind sees assertions when there isn't any evidence to support the implication being suggested in the above. It'ss even funnier when a moderator who is supposed to lead by example, is engaging in insinuating ad hominem fallacies unrelated to the subject matter of OP.
AverageBozo
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by AverageBozo »

Skyblack wrote: June 18th, 2021, 3:27 pm
So, everyone has the potential to make observations the same as one person does, but if they don’t realize this potential by freeing their minds, their observations and conclusions are wrong.

So, in other words, everyone who agrees with the one person’s observations and conclusions has freed their minds and made the right observations and conclusions.

And everyone who doesn’t agree is wrong.

Because this person makes these tenuous claims, all that follows these claims is equally tenuous. To focus on an issue, as a logician I attempt to validate the claims preceding the issue. In this case they are not valid.

The matter of logic is much the same as the matter of spelling and grammar. It is assumed by most that statements are logically sound. As such, the soundness does not make an argument, however the lack of soundness reveals a mind that pays little attention to details, and weakens the credibility of all claims.

I think this explains why I appear to be focused on the author of a post, when I am actually focused on the logic.
From the illogical strawman response above it's quite obvious your attention is focused on the person and not on the matter. The lack of credibility was obvious in your very first post. This defect in attention which is one of the character defects of a deteriorating mind, seems to prevent such mind in giving attention to details.

Whereas the truth of the matter is, as obvious, if one pays attention to the details, no claims have been made and no authority has been asserted. No questions of agreement or diaagreement have been raised by the OP. The OP has simply unpacked a situation.

OP is not interested in educating how contextual rebuttals should be given unless asked. Op understands the value in the correct usage of energy and time. If there is nothing else then please carry on.
Ouch!
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LuckyR
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by LuckyR »

Skyblack wrote: June 18th, 2021, 6:54 pm
Funny how the idea that humans are deficient commonly eminates from the One Knowledgeable Human for whom the idea somehow doesn't apply.
It is indeed funny how a reactive mind sees assertions when there isn't any evidence to support the implication being suggested in the above. It'ss even funnier when a moderator who is supposed to lead by example, is engaging in insinuating ad hominem fallacies unrelated to the subject matter of OP.
That's what happens when opinion tries to pass itself off as data.
"As usual... it depends."
Skyblack
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Re: Deterioration of the human mind

Post by Skyblack »

Papus79

Here is the OP and i have emboldened the parts for your convenience.
When one looks at the human condition one finds the human surrounded by problems. In order to cope with these problems the human looks at various solutions promised by ideologies, religions, politics, economics, science, and so forth. While few of man’s problems are practical but most of them are psychological. An example to better understand the distinction: If one does not have the basic needs of food, shelter, and clothes, this a practical problem. However, If one is psychologically insecure because they aren’t “comparable” or “better” than the Jones, then this a psychological problem.

In his constant effort to fix his problems by looking into the solutions proposed by the various brokers (Secular or Religious), it is clear the human has descended into a pattern of conformity, thus making the mind and the heart dull, insensitive, sluggish, blind, unresponsive, almost lifeless. A second hand machine at best, that constantly breaks down.

It seems the human is not capable of looking at anything with fresh eyes or to adequately respond to the challenges life throws at him/her. Every new moment is met with the weight of the past and through the acquired filters. Thus all responses are partial and fragmentary.

How can such a burdened human ever be free to meet a new unknown moment. How will such a weighed consciousness penetrate the tenuous workings of their own mind, and that of the universe.
If you wish you can reconsider what's being said in the OP. Which may lead to be clear on the implications of the defects being looked at. Then you can if you wish stack those insights with what you have said so far, which may help in highlighting the contradictions or perhaps a slightly superficial take of OP.
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