Authority and Freedom

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Skyblack
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Joined: June 12th, 2021, 11:56 am

Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Skyblack »

Would you consider memory,thought and knowledge to be the same? I do see a difference between intrusive thoughts and real intuitive knowledge and memory. And Memory and knowledge are not static processes but dynamic intuitions.
It does appear to be the same. One has to be wary of the thing called intuition, as thought which is the old can masquerade as intuition (the new). Logically it seems, there can be no intuition without some kind of old knowledge. Therefore "intuition" in most cases is the repetition of the old. There may be another kind of intuition but for purposes of this thread i won't go into it.

Memory and knowledge are constantly changing, yes, in that sense they are dynamic. But once stored in the brain they are now dead information.
Asif
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Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Asif »

Skyblack wrote: June 20th, 2021, 2:54 pm
Would you consider memory,thought and knowledge to be the same? I do see a difference between intrusive thoughts and real intuitive knowledge and memory. And Memory and knowledge are not static processes but dynamic intuitions.
It does appear to be the same. One has to be wary of the thing called intuition, as thought which is the old can masquerade as intuition (the new). Logically it seems, there can be no intuition without some kind of old knowledge. Therefore "intuition" in most cases is the repetition of the old. There may be another kind of intuition but for purposes of this thread i won't go into it.

Memory and knowledge are constantly changing, yes, in that sense they are dynamic. But once stored in the brain they are now dead information.
Interesting! I have seen people confuse intuition with old thought patterns. So are you saying there is a difference between stored
memory and dynamic memory? And is there a difference between brain material and dynamic memory?

Reason: off-topic ad hominem flooding
Skyblack
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Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Skyblack »

Interesting! I have seen people confuse intuition with old thought patterns. So are you saying there is a difference between stored
memory and dynamic memory? And is there a difference between brain material and dynamic memory?
Obviously a memory by definition is stored, and therefore static. Hence any intuition coming from such static memory, is bound to be a modified old thought pattern. Not to see how obvious and logical this is, is the confusion.
Asif
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Joined: August 21st, 2020, 6:08 am

Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Asif »

Skyblack wrote: June 20th, 2021, 3:50 pm
Interesting! I have seen people confuse intuition with old thought patterns. So are you saying there is a difference between stored
memory and dynamic memory? And is there a difference between brain material and dynamic memory?
Obviously a memory by definition is stored, and therefore static. Hence any intuition coming from such static memory, is bound to be a modified old thought pattern. Not to see how obvious and logical this is, is the confusion.
So there is an Intuition free from memory?

Reason: off-topic ad hominem flooding
Skyblack
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Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Skyblack »

So there is an Intuition free from memory?
There may be. Op's sense is there is but OP's sense has no authority and he isn't willing to impose his insight on others. The point though is, a lover of wisdom has to be alight to himself/herself.
Asif
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Joined: August 21st, 2020, 6:08 am

Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Asif »

Skyblack wrote: June 20th, 2021, 4:22 pm
So there is an Intuition free from memory?
There may be. Op's sense is there is but OP's sense has no authority and he isn't willing to impose his insight on others. The point though is, a lover of wisdom has to be alight to himself/herself.
So your saying everybody's path is different or that one's intuition should be directly from oneself and not based on learnt second hand previous knowledge?

Reason: off-topic ad hominem flooding
Skyblack
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Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Skyblack »

So your saying everybody's path is different or that one's intuition should be directly from oneself and not based on learnt second hand previous knowledge?
Well yes, that's the whole point, one has to be a light to oneself. Otherwise one becomes a parrot regurgitating what one has accumulated. And i am sure you have seen many such parrots with ruffled feathers, when yours truly ruffles them a bit. ;)
Asif
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Joined: August 21st, 2020, 6:08 am

Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Asif »

Skyblack wrote: June 20th, 2021, 4:41 pm
So your saying everybody's path is different or that one's intuition should be directly from oneself and not based on learnt second hand previous knowledge?
Well yes, that's the whole point, one has to be a light to oneself. Otherwise one becomes a parrot regurgitating what one has accumulated. And i am sure you have seen many such parrots with ruffled feathers, when yours truly ruffles them a bit. ;)
OK,I agree with that.
And yes,I've seen the parrots!!! Oh,how they love to squawk!

Reason: off-topic ad hominem flooding
Nick_A
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Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Nick_A »

Skyblack wrote: June 20th, 2021, 1:07 am Now, how does the lover of wisdom accurately learn about himself and the world? Certainly not according to some analyst, some philosopher, some guru, some formula, some method. If we learn about ourselves according to an “expert” then we learn about that expert and what his/her thoughts are, not about ourselves. Besides, one simply has to look at the lives, the conduct, of these dime a dozen so called experts to get an accurate estimation of the value, or in most cases the lack thereof, of what they espouse. Their real lives indicate their clueless-ness.

One wonders why we submit to authority. Why are we always on the lookout for handouts? Whether the handouts are from the government, some holy book, the newest intellectual gimmick, the newest ideas so on and so forth. Interestingly, again, yesterday I saw a post which might explain this briefly. We submit to authority because all of us have this inward demand to be safe, this urge to be secure, to have an easy life. Desire for comfort and convenience trumps over sweat of the brow. It seems so long as we want to be secure in our possessions, in our power, in our thoughts, we must have authority. We will always be followers.

But to learn about oneself, all psychological authority must come to an end, whether it be the authority of the church or of the local priest, or the famous analyst, or of the greatest philosophers with their intellectual formulas, and so on.

It seems there is a need for a psychological revolution within the person if he/she is serious. A revolution of our own psyche wherein, all psychological authority is uprooted and thrown out. This is very difficult, for there is not only the outward authority, which one can easily reject, but there is inward authority: the inward authority of one's own experience, of one's own accumulated knowledge, of the opinions, ideas, beliefs, which goads one's life. It’s harder to be free of the latter.

These are in brief some of the issues that confront an inquirer inquiring into freedom.
There is only one path to freedom IMO. The first requires a person to experience and admit their nothingness and exaggerated opinions of themselves which support unfounded pride and vanity. Then a person can make sincere efforts to "Know Thyself" without imagining oneself. When a person experiences and admits their slavery to the external world, then they can begin to become free of the imagination that keeps them as slaves and denied the objective experience of human meaning and purpose.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Papus79
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Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Papus79 »

Nick_A wrote: June 20th, 2021, 7:27 pm There is only one path to freedom IMO. The first requires a person to experience and admit their nothingness and exaggerated opinions of themselves which support unfounded pride and vanity. Then a person can make sincere efforts to "Know Thyself" without imagining oneself. When a person experiences and admits their slavery to the external world, then they can begin to become free of the imagination that keeps them as slaves and denied the objective experience of human meaning and purpose.
That's where the fight to hold the world's games off outside your skin, to the best of your ability, and enforce you own internal autonomy ensues.
Humbly watching Youtube in Universe 25. - Me
Alkis
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Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Alkis »

Skyblack wrote: June 20th, 2021, 1:07 am Now, how does the lover of wisdom accurately learn about himself and the world? Certainly not according to some analyst, some philosopher, some guru, some formula, some method. If we learn about ourselves according to an “expert” then we learn about that expert and what his/her thoughts are, not about ourselves. Besides, one simply has to look at the lives, the conduct, of these dime a dozen so called experts to get an accurate estimation of the value, or in most cases the lack thereof, of what they espouse. Their real lives indicate their clueless-ness.
...
Reading and learning from authorities does not mean that we have to identify ourselves with them or follow their example or take their viewpoints for granted or accept them blindly. I don't know about you, bur by "authorities" I mean persons that have studied and been involved in a certain subject for quite long and quite intensively to become to know that subject very well, in short, experts in a subject. Authorities are very useful in offering us challenges, incentives to deal and work with by using experience, examples and logic. In philosophy these challenges are ideas and viewpoints. Because, however "expert" is an expert, what he communicates is his viewpoint about a subject. Each one of us have our own viewpoint about the same subject. We may extend it, expand it and/or improve it by obtaining incentives and accepting challenges.
Skyblack wrote: June 20th, 2021, 1:07 am These are in brief some of the issues that confront an inquirer inquiring into freedom.
Where and how does freedom come in in all this? Maybe, being free to accept or reject an authority? In general, we can accept or reject things that are in accord or disaccord with our reality, resp/ly. This is not freedom but intelligence, rationality and self-confidence.
Skyblack
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Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Skyblack »

A note to any future new poster:

I won't be responding to posts anymore and have given my reasons here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17405&start=75
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GrayArea
Posts: 374
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Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by GrayArea »

Skyblack wrote: June 20th, 2021, 1:07 am Now, how does the lover of wisdom accurately learn about himself and the world? Certainly not according to some analyst, some philosopher, some guru, some formula, some method. If we learn about ourselves according to an “expert” then we learn about that expert and what his/her thoughts are, not about ourselves. Besides, one simply has to look at the lives, the conduct, of these dime a dozen so called experts to get an accurate estimation of the value, or in most cases the lack thereof, of what they espouse. Their real lives indicate their clueless-ness.

One wonders why we submit to authority. Why are we always on the lookout for handouts? Whether the handouts are from the government, some holy book, the newest intellectual gimmick, the newest ideas so on and so forth. Interestingly, again, yesterday I saw a post which might explain this briefly. We submit to authority because all of us have this inward demand to be safe, this urge to be secure, to have an easy life. Desire for comfort and convenience trumps over sweat of the brow. It seems so long as we want to be secure in our possessions, in our power, in our thoughts, we must have authority. We will always be followers.

But to learn about oneself, all psychological authority must come to an end, whether it be the authority of the church or of the local priest, or the famous analyst, or of the greatest philosophers with their intellectual formulas, and so on.

It seems there is a need for a psychological revolution within the person if he/she is serious. A revolution of our own psyche wherein, all psychological authority is uprooted and thrown out. This is very difficult, for there is not only the outward authority, which one can easily reject, but there is inward authority: the inward authority of one's own experience, of one's own accumulated knowledge, of the opinions, ideas, beliefs, which goads one's life. It’s harder to be free of the latter.

These are in brief some of the issues that confront an inquirer inquiring into freedom.
You forgot another. Technology. It is currently humanity's greatest authority. Could we reject this and be able to make our own decisions instead of making technology do so?
People perceive gray and argue about whether it's black or white.
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Robert66
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Joined: April 20th, 2014, 5:13 pm

Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by Robert66 »

'Now, how does the lover of wisdom accurately learn about himself and the world? Certainly not according to some analyst, some philosopher, some guru, some formula, some method. If we learn about ourselves according to an “expert” then we learn about that expert and what his/her thoughts are, not about ourselves. Besides, one simply has to look at the lives, the conduct, of these dime a dozen so called experts to get an accurate estimation of the value, or in most cases the lack thereof, of what they espouse. Their real lives indicate their clueless-ness.'

... 'one becomes a parrot regurgitating what one has accumulated.'

So true - in this case a parrot regurgitating an annoyingly common dismissal of un-named experts.
maril123
Posts: 10
Joined: June 27th, 2022, 1:50 am

Re: Authority and Freedom

Post by maril123 »

The average person lacks the capacity to think for himself/herself. Most of them are too weak-minded to even want to try, and those who are strong-minded enough to try, still fail due to insufficient intelligence. What is left for them is to submit to authority. The lover of wisdom is typically not someone from the average group.
[/quote]

Congratulations. You just separated humanity to weak minded and strong minded, sufficiently intelligent and insufficiently intelligent, submissive and free. Making the lover of wisdom the byproduct of a eugenicist project.

This is Phaethon's chariot when the sun goes too high and too low, colours become sharp and humans don't see the hubris of them...
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