Is philosophy a political ideology?

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Asif
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Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Asif »

I have observed that all philosophers are really expressing their political ideology,what they think the world is like and how they would like it to be.
With this in mind it really depends on one's politics what one considers as true and what one values.
All the bombast about philosophers searching for truth is really nonsense. They are searching for or justifying political control through ideology,with very very few exceptions.
Plato being a prime example.
With that in mind how many think their philosophy is a search for truth rather than a political ideology?
( Note; this also explains the lack of agreement in philosophy over time.The political parties cannot and will not agree! )

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Sy Borg
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Sy Borg »

I have some strong views on various issues that people think of as political, which I think of as simply pragmatic, but age has diminished my care about what others think or believe.

As you say, there will always be those who disagree. This is inevitable, as we rely on others to do jobs that we find distasteful or for which we are poorly equipped. Those doing those jobs might find your job to be anathema. Together we make a society, even if we rub each other the wrong way at times.

But human carry-on is less interesting to me than trying to better understand this insanely complex, baffling and compelling reality that inspires and torments all of us, regardless of political persuasion. My main interests lie around the processes leading up to abiogenesis and consciousness. There's some politics in there too - neuro-centrism/materialism vs panpsychism vs proto-consciousness vs theistic ideas etc - but the phenomena themselves are the main game, not epistemological models. I find these phenomena mind-boggling and hard to understand.

There's much larger realities that dwarf and encompass our little human shadow plays currently occupying a single planet about 13.8 BILLION years after what I like to think of as a virtual particle that ran amok.

There's too much out there (and in here) that's interesting to get too bogged down with politics IMO.
Asif
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Asif »

Sy Borg wrote: June 21st, 2021, 5:19 am I have some strong views on various issues that people think of as political, which I think of as simply pragmatic, but age has diminished my care about what others think or believe.

As you say, there will always be those who disagree. This is inevitable, as we rely on others to do jobs that we find distasteful or for which we are poorly equipped. Those doing those jobs might find your job to be anathema. Together we make a society, even if we rub each other the wrong way at times.

But human carry-on is less interesting to me than trying to better understand this insanely complex, baffling and compelling reality that inspires and torments all of us, regardless of political persuasion. My main interests lie around the processes leading up to abiogenesis and consciousness. There's some politics in there too - neuro-centrism/materialism vs panpsychism vs proto-consciousness vs theistic ideas etc - but the phenomena themselves are the main game, not epistemological models. I find these phenomena mind-boggling and hard to understand.

There's much larger realities that dwarf and encompass our little human shadow plays currently occupying a single planet about 13.8 BILLION years after what I like to think of as a virtual particle that ran amok.

There's too much out there (and in here) that's interesting to get too bogged down with politics IMO.
OK. You get that I mean politics in the broad sense of materialism,theism etc,etc. But your valuation that humans are a little shadow resulting from a "particle run amok" is itself a political ideology. That is what my post is saying. It seems you are wrestling with materialist political ideology. But one can wrestle without embracing the ideology. I thought that is what real philosophy aspires to. A critique of dogma.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Terrapin Station »

"Is philosophy a political ideology?"

No.

Either your reading in philosophy would have to be very limited, or you'd need to have either very odd reading comprehension and/or a ridiculously broad definition of "political ideology" to think that.

A lot of philosophers say nothing about "how they'd like the world to be."
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:18 am OK. You get that I mean politics in the broad sense of materialism,theism etc,etc.
How would you see either materialism or theism as political?
Asif
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Asif »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:35 am
Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:18 am OK. You get that I mean politics in the broad sense of materialism,theism etc,etc.
How would you see either materialism or theism as political?
I would say materialism is trying to force or universalise an ideology onto people. And theism can be used similarly.

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Asif
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Asif »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:34 am "Is philosophy a political ideology?"

No.

Either your reading in philosophy would have to be very limited, or you'd need to have either very odd reading comprehension and/or a ridiculously broad definition of "political ideology" to think that.

A lot of philosophers say nothing about "how they'd like the world to be."
Contraire. A lot of philosophers would like people to be more "rational" like them,and defer to their "intellect".
Have you met a philosopher who thought his thinking or "rationality" was not the way forward or superior to others?

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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:49 am Contraire. A lot of philosophers would like people to be more "rational" like them,and defer to their "intellect".
If a lot of Fs are G, that in no way precludes a lot of Fs from being H (where H is mutually exclusive from G).

So noting that a lot of philosophers are some way in no way contradicts that a lot are some other way, which is all that I said.
Have you met a philosopher who thought his thinking or "rationality" was not the way forward or superior to others?
Yes, tons of them.

How about this: what have any of the following philosophers said that you think is political, or that even just amounted to saying that "their thinking is 'the way forward' and superior to others:"

Kit Fine
Saul Kripke
Gustav Bergmann
Ernst Mach
Wilfrid Sellars
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:45 am
Terrapin Station wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:35 am
Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:18 am OK. You get that I mean politics in the broad sense of materialism,theism etc,etc.
How would you see either materialism or theism as political?
I would say materialism is trying to force or universalise an ideology onto people. And theism can be used similarly.
Would it be possible in your view to express a belief that everything is material or that a God exists without it amounting to "trying to force an ideology onto people"? If it's possible, how would one do so?
Asif
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Asif »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 21st, 2021, 7:04 am
Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:49 am Contraire. A lot of philosophers would like people to be more "rational" like them,and defer to their "intellect".
If a lot of Fs are G, that in no way precludes a lot of Fs from being H (where H is mutually exclusive from G).

So noting that a lot of philosophers are some way in no way contradicts that a lot are some other way, which is all that I said.
Have you met a philosopher who thought his thinking or "rationality" was not the way forward or superior to others?
Yes, tons of them.

How about this: what have any of the following philosophers said that you think is political, or that even just amounted to saying that "their thinking is 'the way forward' and superior to others:"

Kit Fine
Saul Kripke
Gustav Bergmann
Ernst Mach
Wilfrid Sellars
So your serious telling me that you've met tons of philosophers who didn't think "rationality" was superior to other methods of insight? So why would they be philosophers then rather than mystics or Poets?
Same applies to the 5 you mentioned. If they didn't believe in reason they wouldn't be within the academic tradition.

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Asif
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Asif »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 21st, 2021, 7:06 am
Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:45 am
Terrapin Station wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:35 am
Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:18 am OK. You get that I mean politics in the broad sense of materialism,theism etc,etc.
How would you see either materialism or theism as political?
I would say materialism is trying to force or universalise an ideology onto people. And theism can be used similarly.
Would it be possible in your view to express a belief that everything is material or that a God exists without it amounting to "trying to force an ideology onto people"? If it's possible, how would one do so?
With materialism it's not possible.
With theism the person would already be receptive to it,otherwise its force.

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Steve3007
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Steve3007 »

Asif wrote:With materialism it's not possible.
So if I say "I am a materialist" I'm trying to force my ideology onto others? Is it ever possible to say anything at all about my beliefs without it amounting to forcing my beliefs on others? What if I say "I believe that it's raining today"?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 7:12 am
Terrapin Station wrote: June 21st, 2021, 7:04 am
Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:49 am Contraire. A lot of philosophers would like people to be more "rational" like them,and defer to their "intellect".
If a lot of Fs are G, that in no way precludes a lot of Fs from being H (where H is mutually exclusive from G).

So noting that a lot of philosophers are some way in no way contradicts that a lot are some other way, which is all that I said.
Have you met a philosopher who thought his thinking or "rationality" was not the way forward or superior to others?
Yes, tons of them.

How about this: what have any of the following philosophers said that you think is political, or that even just amounted to saying that "their thinking is 'the way forward' and superior to others:"

Kit Fine
Saul Kripke
Gustav Bergmann
Ernst Mach
Wilfrid Sellars
So your serious telling me that you've met tons of philosophers who didn't think "rationality" was superior to other methods of insight? So why would they be philosophers then rather than mystics or Poets?
Same applies to the 5 you mentioned. If they didn't believe in reason they wouldn't be within the academic tradition.
What you wrote was "Have you met a philosopher who thought HIS thinking or rationality was not the way forward or superior to others."

Did you not really mean "his"? You just meant rationality in general?
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Terrapin Station
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 7:14 am With materialism it's not possible.
lol, so if the person has no thoughts of trying to force their view onto others, but they happen to believe that only material things exist, they're just out of luck. It turns out that they're trying to force their view onto others whether they have any intention of that or not?
Asif
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Re: Is philosophy a political ideology?

Post by Asif »

Terrapin Station wrote: June 21st, 2021, 7:18 am
Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 7:12 am
Terrapin Station wrote: June 21st, 2021, 7:04 am
Asif wrote: June 21st, 2021, 6:49 am Contraire. A lot of philosophers would like people to be more "rational" like them,and defer to their "intellect".
If a lot of Fs are G, that in no way precludes a lot of Fs from being H (where H is mutually exclusive from G).

So noting that a lot of philosophers are some way in no way contradicts that a lot are some other way, which is all that I said.
Have you met a philosopher who thought his thinking or "rationality" was not the way forward or superior to others?
Yes, tons of them.

How about this: what have any of the following philosophers said that you think is political, or that even just amounted to saying that "their thinking is 'the way forward' and superior to others:"

Kit Fine
Saul Kripke
Gustav Bergmann
Ernst Mach
Wilfrid Sellars
So your serious telling me that you've met tons of philosophers who didn't think "rationality" was superior to other methods of insight? So why would they be philosophers then rather than mystics or Poets?
Same applies to the 5 you mentioned. If they didn't believe in reason they wouldn't be within the academic tradition.
What you wrote was "Have you met a philosopher who thought HIS thinking or rationality was not the way forward or superior to others."

Did you not really mean "his"? You just meant rationality in general?
This is pedantry.

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