The art of of the lie.
- mystery
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The art of of the lie.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.
- LuckyR
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Re: The art of of the lie.
This has been an extensive topic at least once on this Forum. I was either the lone or one of the very few who stated that there is a legitimate and important role for untruths to play in society.mystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.
- mystery
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Re: The art of of the lie.
I agree with you. Reasons exist that is moral to do it. The interesting thing is what do others think about what things are ok. None of us will really tell-all, but as it's a more or less anonymouse space we might.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 3:26 amThis has been an extensive topic at least once on this Forum. I was either the lone or one of the very few who stated that there is a legitimate and important role for untruths to play in society.mystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.
- Sculptor1
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Re: The art of of the lie.
One thing is obvious; we should take care to withold our votes for people whose immediate reaction is to say what they think will make themselves look good regardless of the truth.mystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.
Boris Johnson and Donald Trump are two such people. For them lying is a reflex action.
Dissimulation can take many forms.
Here's a cracker from Boris Johnson from seven years ago.
- AmericanKestrel
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Re: The art of of the lie.
Sometimes we believe lies. It could be for several reasons, one of them being self protection which we may not be aware of. If we become aware of why we believe, we will stop believing.mystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.
So lies need believers in order to exist, it seems to me.
Why do we willingly believe lies?
And then there are liars who cannot stop lying, the lie for no reason at all. A kind of mental illness or dysfunction.
- Pattern-chaser
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Re: The art of of the lie.
mystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.
Yes, there are a few circumstances where lying seems the moral thing to do. But mostly it isn't. What can possibly justify communicating in untruths or half-truths? Our world (i.e. our media and news channels) is filled with lies and deceptions, and I can see no benefit from this, and many drawbacks. I assume we all can see this?
"Who cares, wins"
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Re: The art of of the lie.
Since we are tripartite souls living out of balance, lies are essential. They protect us from experiencing the contradictions natural for the truth of the human condition. Without this conscious experience nothing gets better and our species as a whole continues to live in contradiction protected by imagination made possible by the ability to lie.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 11:26 ammystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.Yes, there are a few circumstances where lying seems the moral thing to do. But mostly it isn't. What can possibly justify communicating in untruths or half-truths? Our world (i.e. our media and news channels) is filled with lies and deceptions, and I can see no benefit from this, and many drawbacks. I assume we all can see this?
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Re: The art of of the lie.
Suppose you know that your best friend has just ingested a poison for which there is no antidote and which will surely cause your friend to have a painless demise in just a few minutes.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 3:26 amThis has been an extensive topic at least once on this Forum. I was either the lone or one of the very few who stated that there is a legitimate and important role for untruths to play in society.mystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.
Do you tell your friend the truth of the situation or do you just say what a good friend s/he is?
Yes, lies by commission and omission have a legitimate role to play.
- mystery
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Re: The art of of the lie.
I agree with you 95%. Imagine a child ask his mother, do you love me. For some reason in truth she does not... should she tell the child yes or no.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 11:26 ammystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.Yes, there are a few circumstances where lying seems the moral thing to do. But mostly it isn't. What can possibly justify communicating in untruths or half-truths? Our world (i.e. our media and news channels) is filled with lies and deceptions, and I can see no benefit from this, and many drawbacks. I assume we all can see this?
- mystery
- Posts: 380
- Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
- Location: earth
Re: The art of of the lie.
So is it a good thing or a bad thing, are all lie evil, or are some of the ultimate goodness?Nick_A wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 12:49 pmSince we are tripartite souls living out of balance, lies are essential. They protect us from experiencing the contradictions natural for the truth of the human condition. Without this conscious experience nothing gets better and our species as a whole continues to live in contradiction protected by imagination made possible by the ability to lie.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 11:26 ammystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.Yes, there are a few circumstances where lying seems the moral thing to do. But mostly it isn't. What can possibly justify communicating in untruths or half-truths? Our world (i.e. our media and news channels) is filled with lies and deceptions, and I can see no benefit from this, and many drawbacks. I assume we all can see this?
- mystery
- Posts: 380
- Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
- Location: earth
Re: The art of of the lie.
What do you think drives a person to tell false things, perhaps fear?AmericanKestrel wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 8:34 amSometimes we believe lies. It could be for several reasons, one of them being self protection which we may not be aware of. If we become aware of why we believe, we will stop believing.mystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.
So lies need believers in order to exist, it seems to me.
Why do we willingly believe lies?
And then there are liars who cannot stop lying, the lie for no reason at all. A kind of mental illness or dysfunction.
- mystery
- Posts: 380
- Joined: May 14th, 2021, 5:41 am
- Favorite Philosopher: Mike Tyson
- Location: earth
Re: The art of of the lie.
Is a lie simply something that is not in line with truth, with truth being subjective ? Probably a revolutionist can be honest until they win. After they must lie to get influence on the half of the population that disagrees with them. All usually vote for the truth, some of the truth is false.Sculptor1 wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 5:57 amOne thing is obvious; we should take care to withold our votes for people whose immediate reaction is to say what they think will make themselves look good regardless of the truth.mystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.
Boris Johnson and Donald Trump are two such people. For them lying is a reflex action.
Dissimulation can take many forms.
Here's a cracker from Boris Johnson from seven years ago.
image_2021-06-27_113923.png
- mystery
- Posts: 380
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- Location: earth
Re: The art of of the lie.
agree, my usual example is the "Do I look fat in this dress?" probably true, but not the right thing to say.AverageBozo wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 5:41 pmSuppose you know that your best friend has just ingested a poison for which there is no antidote and which will surely cause your friend to have a painless demise in just a few minutes.LuckyR wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 3:26 amThis has been an extensive topic at least once on this Forum. I was either the lone or one of the very few who stated that there is a legitimate and important role for untruths to play in society.mystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.
Do you tell your friend the truth of the situation or do you just say what a good friend s/he is?
Yes, lies by commission and omission have a legitimate role to play.
- LuckyR
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Re: The art of of the lie.
The media is an extremely low bar (almost to the point of strawman), why? Because the media is in the truth business. Of course they shouldn't lie.Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 11:26 ammystery wrote: ↑June 27th, 2021, 2:08 am Everyone tells lies.
How do we limit it or should we?
Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?
Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?
Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.Yes, there are a few circumstances where lying seems the moral thing to do. But mostly it isn't. What can possibly justify communicating in untruths or half-truths? Our world (i.e. our media and news channels) is filled with lies and deceptions, and I can see no benefit from this, and many drawbacks. I assume we all can see this?
I pointed out that in common social interactions many if not most people don't deserve to know details of your life. Pushy folks routinely ask for more information than they have a right to know. The correct action is NOT to tell the truth. One option is to dodge and explain why they don't need to know your truth (a bit tricky if they are your boss). Another is to answer a question different to the one they asked (standard political move), but another is to out and out lie. All reasonable.
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Re: The art of of the lie.
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