The art of of the lie.

[mystery]

Everyone tells lies.

How do we limit it or should we?

Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?

Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?

Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.

This has been an extensive topic at least once on this Forum. I was either the lone or one of the very few who stated that there is a legitimate and important role for untruths to play in society.

Yes, there are a few circumstances where lying seems the moral thing to do. But mostly it isn't. What can possibly justify communicating in untruths or half-truths? Our world (i.e. our media and news channels) is filled with lies and deceptions, and I can see no benefit from this, and many drawbacks. I assume we all can see this?

The media is an extremely low bar (almost to the point of strawman), why? Because the media is in the truth business. Of course they shouldn't lie.

I pointed out that in common social interactions many if not most people don't deserve to know details of your life. Pushy folks routinely ask for more information than they have a right to know. The correct action is NOT to tell the truth. One option is to dodge and explain why they don't need to know your truth (a bit tricky if they are your boss). Another is to answer a question different to the one they asked (standard political move), but another is to out and out lie. All reasonable.

I occasionally respond with "that is private information"

[mystery]

I think in each society the art consists in knowing when to and when not to. When is the truth mandatory and when is it dangerous. Depending on when or where, it could be a matter of life or death.

The whole idea of dying for the truth just doesn't make sense usually. Telling a lie to save an innocent, I think I can agree with that.

[mystery]

I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God.

After committing to this oath is it ok to lie?

[AverageBozo]

Why do we willingly believe lies?

I think we succumb to lies unwittingly.
We choose to believe the truth and the lies seem to be true.

[Steve3007]

As I recall, in the film "The Invention of Lying", the Ricky Gervais character is talking to his mother on her deathbed, and she's a bit apprehensive about dying, so he tells her that when she dies she's going to go to a lovely place where she'll get to meet all her friends and family again (apart from the ones she doesn't like) and be happy and free from suffering forever. Since, in the film, nobody except the central character is capable of lying, she has no reason to doubt him, so she dies happy.

Surely, of all the lies one could tell, that has to count as the whitest of white lies?

[Steve3007]

As I recall, in the film "Yesterday", due to a global freak event, the central character is (almost) the only person on Earth who remembers The Beatles. So he becomes a big star singing their songs and he neglects to tell the world that he didn't actually write them because, apart from anything else, nobody would believe him if he said they were written by a band that doesn't exist in this version of reality. That's surely quite a white lie too?

[AmericanKestrel]

Everyone tells lies.

How do we limit it or should we?

Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?

Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?

Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.

Sometimes we believe lies. It could be for several reasons, one of them being self protection which we may not be aware of. If we become aware of why we believe, we will stop believing.
So lies need believers in order to exist, it seems to me.
Why do we willingly believe lies?
And then there are liars who cannot stop lying, the lie for no reason at all. A kind of mental illness or dysfunction.

What do you think drives a person to tell false things, perhaps fear?

I think it is a two way street. We are willing to believe lies because truth is too hard to handle sometimes. The liars also lie for several reasons, one being truth is too hard to hear, and they want to protect their loved ones?
Telling truth is not always the right thing to do. Truth itself is a mystery sometimes, we dont always know the truth.
These are ambiguous situations.
Of course there is no justification or excuse for those who lie for selfish ends - nicotine is harmless for instance, to sell cigarettes. So profit is a strong motive for lying.

[AmericanKestrel]

Why do we willingly believe lies?

I think we succumb to lies unwittingly.
We choose to believe the truth and the lies seem to be true.

I am not sure that is entirely true. Truth is hard to hear, we dont always want to hear it. Withholding truth is a form of lie as well.

[AmericanKestrel]

I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God.

After committing to this oath is it ok to lie?

Depends. Do you believe in god, what kind of god?

[Sculptor1]

Everyone tells lies.

How do we limit it or should we?

Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?

Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?

Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.

One thing is obvious; we should take care to withold our votes for people whose immediate reaction is to say what they think will make themselves look good regardless of the truth.
Boris Johnson and Donald Trump are two such people. For them lying is a reflex action.

Dissimulation can take many forms.
Here's a cracker from Boris Johnson from seven years ago.
image_2021-06-27_113923.png

Is a lie simply something that is not in line with truth, with truth being subjective ? Probably a revolutionist can be honest until they win. After they must lie to get influence on the half of the population that disagrees with them. All usually vote for the truth, some of the truth is false.

There are such things as matters of fact. You can play the subjective card as much as you like, but you do not get to own personal facts.

[Pattern-chaser]

This has been an extensive topic at least once on this Forum. I was either the lone or one of the very few who stated that there is a legitimate and important role for untruths to play in society.

Yes, there are a few circumstances where lying seems the moral thing to do. But mostly it isn't. What can possibly justify communicating in untruths or half-truths? Our world (i.e. our media and news channels) is filled with lies and deceptions, and I can see no benefit from this, and many drawbacks. I assume we all can see this?

The media is an extremely low bar (almost to the point of strawman), why? Because the media is in the truth business. Of course they shouldn't lie.

That's a tad unfair. Strawman? I contrasted the "media" and "news channels" for a reason. Our media are money-making entertainment-purveyors, and only some of what they offer is factual. Even news channels (some of them) are also this way inclined. And none of them should lie, I agree, but when some of their output is fiction, 'lying' becomes more difficult to identify when fiction is made-up. I.e. it isn't true.

I pointed out that in common social interactions many if not most people don't deserve to know details of your life. Pushy folks routinely ask for more information than they have a right to know. The correct action is NOT to tell the truth. One option is to dodge and explain why they don't need to know your truth (a bit tricky if they are your boss). Another is to answer a question different to the one they asked (standard political move), but another is to out and out lie. All reasonable.

I think, in this example, that the correct action is to tell the truth. In this case, the truth is "I'm sorry, but that's personal (or whatever), and I don't feel able to share it with you."

I don't dispute your view that there are some few circumstances in which lying is appropriate and correct. But, as I said, "...mostly it isn't."

[AverageBozo]

Why do we willingly believe lies?

I think we succumb to lies unwittingly.
We choose to believe the truth and the lies seem to be true.

I am not sure that is entirely true. Truth is hard to hear, we dont always want to hear it. Withholding truth is a form of lie as well.

The liar knows what is true and may find it too hard to tell, as you suggest. The listener, on the other hand, doesn’t know that there’s a lie afoot—doesn’t know the hard truth—and is fooled into believing that the lie is the truth. And when we willingly believe an untruth, we are practicing denial, because the truth is unbearable.

[Tegularius]

I think in each society the art consists in knowing when to and when not to. When is the truth mandatory and when is it dangerous. Depending on when or where, it could be a matter of life or death.

The whole idea of dying for the truth just doesn't make sense usually. Telling a lie to save an innocent, I think I can agree with that.

No it doesn't. That's why it's better to lie. Nature does it all the time in the form of camouflage when a lie becomes a form of defense.

[mystery]

Everyone tells lies.

How do we limit it or should we?

Sometimes the truth is cruel, sometimes the truth is not convenient. Arbitrarily we make choices about when it is OK to lie. How do we accept this and how do we manage it?

Some ppl due to culture or biology have a difficult time lying, while others do it with pride. What have you seen or think on this topic? Are there any groups where certain lies are OK, that would not be in another?

Maybe it doesn't matter and life is really just “listener beware”.

Sometimes we believe lies. It could be for several reasons, one of them being self protection which we may not be aware of. If we become aware of why we believe, we will stop believing.
So lies need believers in order to exist, it seems to me.
Why do we willingly believe lies?
And then there are liars who cannot stop lying, the lie for no reason at all. A kind of mental illness or dysfunction.

What do you think drives a person to tell false things, perhaps fear?

I think it is a two way street. We are willing to believe lies because truth is too hard to handle sometimes. The liars also lie for several reasons, one being truth is too hard to hear, and they want to protect their loved ones?
Telling truth is not always the right thing to do. Truth itself is a mystery sometimes, we dont always know the truth.
These are ambiguous situations.
Of course there is no justification or excuse for those who lie for selfish ends - nicotine is harmless for instance, to sell cigarettes. So profit is a strong motive for lying.

Sounds like we are close in the ideas on this. It's the gray area that is difficult to figure out. As you point out, greed is always or usually bad.

[mystery]

I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God.

After committing to this oath is it ok to lie?

Depends. Do you believe in god, what kind of god?

For me, I believe in god, originally the one of Abraham. I was born into a Christian culture. My view has changed when getting older, to a mix of Christian and Intelligent design. Still, I have the moral framework based on Christian and find it good. Put me in an interesting position of wanting to believe in something but have learned that it is not fact. Cognitive dissonance. As I accept the facts vs hoping for the truth I find the Cognitive dissonance goes away.

Maybe a difference exists when a person will lie to another person, but not to God or not with a special promise to God not to for that small moment. As you asked, what do you think? God would already know if we lie.

An interesting side point is that ppl that are slightly in the Autism spectrum actually have to learn how to lie. I know it sounds silly, but to be socially compatible with other humans requires the ability to artfully lie and many or most in that grouping simply do not and find it stressful to try to do it.