The art of of the lie.

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mystery
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by mystery »

Steve3007 wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:16 am As I recall, in the film "The Invention of Lying", the Ricky Gervais character is talking to his mother on her deathbed, and she's a bit apprehensive about dying, so he tells her that when she dies she's going to go to a lovely place where she'll get to meet all her friends and family again (apart from the ones she doesn't like) and be happy and free from suffering forever. Since, in the film, nobody except the central character is capable of lying, she has no reason to doubt him, so she dies happy.

Surely, of all the lies one could tell, that has to count as the whitest of white lies?
White lies; yes the ones that are done for the good intentions of another.

The issue is where is the demark, white/gray/dark. It is the gray area, as it can be so very close to the dark.

We have to decide if and how much of the truth to tell at any time. As reaction chains exist for everything, is the white lie really good? Like if we tell the mugger that we have no money and get away, she then goes to another victim and kills them. Had we told the truth and gotten robbed this later victim might be alive.

If we had total power(reality bends to our will) and everyone admired and adored us, would we ever lie?

When we lie it is because reality is in conflict with our wishes. If all is as we wish it, no one would lie.
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2021, 10:26 am
LuckyR wrote: June 27th, 2021, 3:26 am This has been an extensive topic at least once on this Forum. I was either the lone or one of the very few who stated that there is a legitimate and important role for untruths to play in society.
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 27th, 2021, 11:26 am Yes, there are a few circumstances where lying seems the moral thing to do. But mostly it isn't. What can possibly justify communicating in untruths or half-truths? Our world (i.e. our media and news channels) is filled with lies and deceptions, and I can see no benefit from this, and many drawbacks. I assume we all can see this? 🤔
LuckyR wrote: June 28th, 2021, 2:13 am The media is an extremely low bar (almost to the point of strawman), why? Because the media is in the truth business. Of course they shouldn't lie.
That's a tad unfair. Strawman? I contrasted the "media" and "news channels" for a reason. Our media are money-making entertainment-purveyors, and only some of what they offer is factual. Even news channels (some of them) are also this way inclined. And none of them should lie, I agree, but when some of their output is fiction, 'lying' becomes more difficult to identify when fiction is made-up. I.e. it isn't true.


LuckyR wrote: June 28th, 2021, 2:13 am I pointed out that in common social interactions many if not most people don't deserve to know details of your life. Pushy folks routinely ask for more information than they have a right to know. The correct action is NOT to tell the truth. One option is to dodge and explain why they don't need to know your truth (a bit tricky if they are your boss). Another is to answer a question different to the one they asked (standard political move), but another is to out and out lie. All reasonable.
I think, in this example, that the correct action is to tell the truth. In this case, the truth is "I'm sorry, but that's personal (or whatever), and I don't feel able to share it with you."

I don't dispute your view that there are some few circumstances in which lying is appropriate and correct. But, as I said, "...mostly it isn't."
I believe we are in agreement, when conversing with folks who deserve to know my truth (folks I care about), I look out for their best interest and as you said, mostly that involves truthtelling. Rarely it doesn't. To me, their best interests trump pure truthtelling.
"As usual... it depends."
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by Pattern-chaser »

mystery wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:08 am I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God.

After committing to this oath is it ok to lie?
No, I can't see how lying after taking that oath can be morally justified. Otherwise, if we knowingly lie after making such an undertaking, how can/could anyone believe what we say? ... And it is important (to us) that people believe us when we tell the truth, no?


mystery wrote: June 28th, 2021, 10:41 pm An interesting side point is that ppl that are slightly in the Autism spectrum actually have to learn how to lie. I know it sounds silly, but to be socially compatible with other humans requires the ability to artfully lie and many or most in that grouping simply do not and find it stressful to try to do it.
There are many myths, part-truths and misunderstandings spoken and written about autism. This is so even (especially?) within the medical fraternity. Like many such pronouncements, this text contains nuggets of truth ... carefully disguised. But let me say before I continue that I am confident that this text is well-meant, and is not deliberate misdirection.
  • One cannot be "slightly in the Autism spectrum", any more than one can be slightly pregnant.
  • Autistic people do not have to "learn how to lie".
  • It is true that "many or most in that grouping simply do not and find it stressful to try to do it", but not because we can't, or that we have to learn how.
If anyone is interested enough to want to know more, here is a blog post I wrote on how we communicate. Here is the paragraph that considers lying, while explaining why we don't use implication:
Pattern-chaser wrote:I think we don’t like implication because we don’t generally lie. It’s not that we’re too saintly to lie, or that we can’t lie, it’s just that we really don’t like dishonesty of any sort. We see implications, and the like, as dishonest, so we choose not to use them.
It's a strong preference among autistic people not to lie or deceive, not an inability.


Sadly, the following piece of text is true, as far as I know, in the context of human social communication as it applies to autistic people: "...to be socially compatible with other humans requires the ability to artfully lie". From my blog, again:
Pattern-chaser wrote:From our point of view, NT communication seems, at its core, deceptive, intentionally misleading, and intentionally dishonest. From your point of view, we can only assume you do this unconsciously, out of habit, as surely no-one would deliberately base their communications on dishonesty?
[NT = NeuroTypical, as opposed to NeuroDiverse.]
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Re: The art of of the lie.

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LuckyR wrote: June 29th, 2021, 3:23 am I believe we are in agreement, when conversing with folks who deserve to know my truth (folks I care about), I look out for their best interest and as you said, mostly that involves truth-telling. Rarely it doesn't. To me, their best interests trump pure truth-telling.
Yes, we are in agreement. 🙂 I find it uncomfortable to accept your final sentence, but I cannot offer an argument against it. 😉 For myself, I would always try to find a way of telling the truth in the kindest way, if I could. But that's just me, and I would not condemn someone else in similar circumstances who lied for good and kind reasons.
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by AmericanKestrel »

I dont believe in a God that punishes. My view of god is that he is not separate from me. So i am responsible for my own actions, i have to answer to me.
I wonder if a lie can be seriously considered an action. And some people lie for no reason at all, for the stupidest reasons. The person who is lied to is the one who is hurt, like the one invests money based on a loe and loses everything.
"The Serpent did not lie."
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by Robert66 »

LuckyR wrote: June 28th, 2021, 2:13 am I pointed out that in common social interactions many if not most people don't deserve to know details of your life. Pushy folks routinely ask for more information than they have a right to know. The correct action is NOT to tell the truth. One option is to dodge and explain why they don't need to know your truth (a bit tricky if they are your boss). Another is to answer a question different to the one they asked (standard political move), but another is to out and out lie. All reasonable.
If asked "What are you doing?" by someone with no right or need to know, just say "I'm waxing my Buick." (from the movie Little Man Tate, 1991 -Jodie Foster's directorial debut) It usually shuts them up, or moves the conversation somewhere more enjoyable.
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mystery
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by mystery »

turns out to be not that interesting of a topic, apparently, almost everyone already gets it and agrees.
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by Steve3007 »

mystery wrote:...As reaction chains exist for everything...
True. What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. There are webs of consequences to every lie. So it we decide that we want to lie about something and for our lie never to be discovered, we have to become "method actors". We have to mentally inhabit the universe in which the lie we've told, and its cascade of consequences, is the truth.
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by Steve3007 »

Robert66 wrote:If asked "What are you doing?" by someone with no right or need to know, just say "I'm waxing my Buick."
Or "mind your own beeswax". If you were French you might say "c'est pas tes oignons".
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Steve3007 wrote: June 30th, 2021, 7:14 am What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. There are webs of consequences to every lie. So it we decide that we want to lie about something and for our lie never to be discovered, we have to become "method actors". We have to mentally inhabit the universe in which the lie we've told, and its cascade of consequences, is the truth.
Not only that, but we have to remember what lies we've told, and to whom, so that we don't trip ourselves up and reveal our dishonesty. It was this "cascade of consequences" that finally taught me, as a teenager, that lying was not worth the trouble. Careful omission of parts of the truth are as close as I allow myself to come to lying. I find this works for me. YMMV 😉
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by Steve3007 »

Not only that, but we have to remember what lies we've told, and to whom, so that we don't trip ourselves up and reveal our dishonesty.
Yes, that's why, as liars, we have to be method actors. We have to inhabit the universe in which the lie is true.
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Steve3007 wrote: June 30th, 2021, 11:37 am
Not only that, but we have to remember what lies we've told, and to whom, so that we don't trip ourselves up and reveal our dishonesty.
Yes, that's why, as liars, we have to be method actors. We have to inhabit the universe in which the lie is true.
Yes, once I realised that, I stopped doing it. To live my whole life as an actor, desperately trying to keep my lies from being discovered? I have better things to do. I'm sure we all do. But others make different decisions from me, and continue to lie anyway. I can't understand why anyone would wish to live like that.
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by Steve3007 »

I can't understand why anyone would wish to live like that.
Because they really want to still be president?
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mystery
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by mystery »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 29th, 2021, 8:37 am
mystery wrote: June 28th, 2021, 8:08 am I promise to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God.

After committing to this oath is it ok to lie?
No, I can't see how lying after taking that oath can be morally justified. Otherwise, if we knowingly lie after making such an undertaking, how can/could anyone believe what we say? ... And it is important (to us) that people believe us when we tell the truth, no?


mystery wrote: June 28th, 2021, 10:41 pm An interesting side point is that ppl that are slightly in the Autism spectrum actually have to learn how to lie. I know it sounds silly, but to be socially compatible with other humans requires the ability to artfully lie and many or most in that grouping simply do not and find it stressful to try to do it.
There are many myths, part-truths and misunderstandings spoken and written about autism. This is so even (especially?) within the medical fraternity. Like many such pronouncements, this text contains nuggets of truth ... carefully disguised. But let me say before I continue that I am confident that this text is well-meant, and is not deliberate misdirection.
  • One cannot be "slightly in the Autism spectrum", any more than one can be slightly pregnant.
  • Autistic people do not have to "learn how to lie".
  • It is true that "many or most in that grouping simply do not and find it stressful to try to do it", but not because we can't, or that we have to learn how.
If anyone is interested enough to want to know more, here is a blog post I wrote on how we communicate. Here is the paragraph that considers lying, while explaining why we don't use implication:
Pattern-chaser wrote:I think we don’t like implication because we don’t generally lie. It’s not that we’re too saintly to lie, or that we can’t lie, it’s just that we really don’t like dishonesty of any sort. We see implications, and the like, as dishonest, so we choose not to use them.
It's a strong preference among autistic people not to lie or deceive, not an inability.


Sadly, the following piece of text is true, as far as I know, in the context of human social communication as it applies to autistic people: "...to be socially compatible with other humans requires the ability to artfully lie". From my blog, again:
Pattern-chaser wrote:From our point of view, NT communication seems, at its core, deceptive, intentionally misleading, and intentionally dishonest. From your point of view, we can only assume you do this unconsciously, out of habit, as surely no-one would deliberately base their communications on dishonesty?
[NT = NeuroTypical, as opposed to NeuroDiverse.]
we disagree again (mmm in a friendly way). The traits of autism are for sure a spectrum. As for dishonesty, it is our wording that is different only. You tell us that we can by choose not to. I can agree, my interpretation of that is that we have to learn to sometimes want to. The problem is that right and wrong feel very black and white, the gray area is painful. The very clear demark of good and evil is the issue.
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by Pattern-chaser »

mystery wrote: July 1st, 2021, 12:49 am The traits of autism are for sure a spectrum.
All autists are different, and if that's what you mean by a spectrum, you're right. But there is a clear and significant difference between someone who is autistic and someone who is not. Please accept this from someone who is autistic, and knows whereof they speak. Thanks.


mystery wrote: July 1st, 2021, 12:49 am As for dishonesty, it is our wording that is different only.
No, I don't think so. Please read my blog post to see what I mean. It's a 2-minute read. It is written from personal experience, and from conversations I have had with other autistic people. It is as accurate and clear as I could make it. Dishonesty is distasteful to autists, but a core quality of NT communication. It is our wording, and our understanding too, that differs.

Thanks for showing an interest.
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