The art of of the lie.

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Consul
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Re: The art of of the lie.

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A short text by Colin McGinn: The Virtuous Lie
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Steve3007
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Re: The art of of the lie.

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Consul wrote:A short text by Colin McGinn: The Virtuous Lie
It's interesting in that it introduces the concept of the promise; related to the idea of the contract. It proposes that, in some circumstances, the importance of keeping promises can be said to override consequentialist arguments. But it could be argued that the reason why we attach importance to promise-keeping is due to wider consequentialist arguments. i.e. We perhaps think that promise-keeping is one of the foundations on which societies are built. Honouring contractual agreements certainly is.
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Consul
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Re: The art of of the lie.

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Steve3007 wrote: July 1st, 2021, 10:21 am
Consul wrote:A short text by Colin McGinn: The Virtuous Lie
It's interesting in that it introduces the concept of the promise; related to the idea of the contract. It proposes that, in some circumstances, the importance of keeping promises can be said to override consequentialist arguments. But it could be argued that the reason why we attach importance to promise-keeping is due to wider consequentialist arguments. i.e. We perhaps think that promise-keeping is one of the foundations on which societies are built. Honouring contractual agreements certainly is.
McGinn presents a deontological argument for the moral legitimacy of lying under certain circumstances: We have the duty to keep our promises, so lying isn't morally wrong in case not lying would mean breaking a promise.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
Steve3007
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by Steve3007 »

Consul wrote:McGinn presents a deontological argument for the moral legitimacy of lying under certain circumstances: We have the duty to keep our promises, so lying isn't morally wrong in case not lying would mean breaking a promise.
Yes I know. He points out that most justifications for lying rely on consequentialist arguments about the good consequences of the lie overriding the prima facie wrong of lying. But lying to keep a promise (he argues) doesn't. I was just speculating that it's possible to challenge his point that "duty to keep our promises" is not consequentialist. I was pointing out that it could be argued that we created that duty to keep promises for wider consequentialist reasons.
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mystery
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by mystery »

Consul wrote: July 1st, 2021, 11:20 am
Steve3007 wrote: July 1st, 2021, 10:21 am
Consul wrote:A short text by Colin McGinn: The Virtuous Lie
It's interesting in that it introduces the concept of the promise; related to the idea of the contract. It proposes that, in some circumstances, the importance of keeping promises can be said to override consequentialist arguments. But it could be argued that the reason why we attach importance to promise-keeping is due to wider consequentialist arguments. i.e. We perhaps think that promise-keeping is one of the foundations on which societies are built. Honouring contractual agreements certainly is.
McGinn presents a deontological argument for the moral legitimacy of lying under certain circumstances: We have the duty to keep our promises, so lying isn't morally wrong in case not lying would mean breaking a promise.
a double bind, that makes sense.
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mystery
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Re: The art of of the lie.

Post by mystery »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 1st, 2021, 8:57 am
mystery wrote: July 1st, 2021, 12:49 am The traits of autism are for sure a spectrum.
All autists are different, and if that's what you mean by a spectrum, you're right. But there is a clear and significant difference between someone who is autistic and someone who is not. Please accept this from someone who is autistic, and knows whereof they speak. Thanks.


mystery wrote: July 1st, 2021, 12:49 am As for dishonesty, it is our wording that is different only.
No, I don't think so. Please read my blog post to see what I mean. It's a 2-minute read. It is written from personal experience, and from conversations I have had with other autistic people. It is as accurate and clear as I could make it. Dishonesty is distasteful to autists, but a core quality of NT communication. It is our wording, and our understanding too, that differs.

Thanks for showing an interest.
I have a lot of interest in this topic. I live it and care for another that lives it.

I mostly agree with your link about this and very much get it.

All the information that is assumed between ppl does not get processed. We CAN learn how to see it and process it, albeit never as fast as a natural can.

My daughter is autistic, with very high functioning. Although not uncommon it is less common for a female to have this way than it is for a male. I can still remember the careful and very neat piles of toys, instead of playing with them, she would line them up. After years of intervention and special training, most common ppl will have no idea about this for her, she has very completely learned how to reply to so many things that it looks very natural. But when talking with her and her perceptions of things, it is all very clear then. I am enough in the spectrum to completely understand her. For example, she uses the word humans instead of people, but for some reason, most do not notice or care, I feel some success in that she is able to fit in ok.

One of the things that held me back professionally for many years was the ability to accept the gray area of things. Generally, leadership is all about triaging the gray area. I did learn to do it, and I did learn to lie or learn to accept doing it when needed but it still is not a comfortable thing to do.

I can still remember in the past choosing truth over friendship. That is a terrible choice and the wrong one to make on many levels. I no longer do that as I have learned more about how things work and do not find the evil I once did in the false view.

As you know the number of cases increases without a clear reason as to why. It is evolution, but how exactly is an interesting topic. But clearly, from an evolutionary point, Autism is winning, not a deficiency at all it is an evolutionary step. That's just my idea... Evolution is the master of all, anything that increases from that perspective is somehow stronger.

When first understood how common telling lies is and that most are doing it in a normal way I was astounded at how evil all are. Over time I learned and am ok with it now. I generally find men more honest than women. Women tend to believe what they fabricate, I mean it becomes true for them, while men usually continue to know that they are lying.
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