Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

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Consul
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Consul »

Applied ethics (e.g. biomedical ethics, business ethics, and environmental ethics) isn't "just an academic amusement".
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Consul
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Consul »

Consul wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 10:06 amPolitical ideologies are important factors in society, and they are all based on philosophical ideas and theories.
The practical consequences of political ideologies are often anything but amusing.

QUOTE>
"An ideology is a more or less coherent set of ideas that provides the basis for organized political action, whether this is intended to preserve, modify or overthrow the existing system of power. All ideologies therefore have the following features. They:

(a) offer an account of the existing order, usually in the form of a ‘world-view’

(b) advance a model of a desired future, a vision of the ‘good society“

(c) explain how political change can and should be brought about – how to get from (a) to (b).

This definition is neither original nor novel, and is entirely in line with the social-scientific usage of the term. It nevertheless draws attention to some of the important and distinctive features of the phenomenon of ideology. In particular, it emphasizes that the complexity of ideology derives from the fact that it straddles the conventional boundaries between descriptive and normative thought, and between political theory and political practice. Ideology, in short, brings about two kinds of synthesis: between understanding and commitment, and between thought and action."

(Heywood, Andrew. Political Ideologies. 6th ed. London: Palgrave, 2017. pp. 10-1)
<QUOTE

(a) is the metaphysical or ontological dimension of an ideology. For example, Christian democracy is based on the worldview of Christian theism.
"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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Tom Butler
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Tom Butler »

mystery wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 12:18 am We can learn much faster when we listen and consider what others tell, both when they agree and when they do not.
Excellent Mystery! Personal learning is the key to what I think of as a cooperative community. If I was to start a new system of thought, I would replace the Golden Rule of "Do unto others..." with "Teach me as I teach you." My vision of a cooperative community is one that has a culture of candid, honest and polite exchange of ideas. It is not the idea that is important so much as it is the process the speaker goes through to formulate a comment and the listener goes through to digest it.

We have talked about how we mostly unconsciously process information before a version of it is sent on to conscious self. That works both ways -- perception and expressing. One way to put that principle to work is habitual contemplation of assumptions ... as they come to us if done right. Speaking and hearing can be thought of as being accompanied by more or less instantaneous contemplation of the information. It depends on the habits we develop.

In the beginning, we share personal philosophy. In the end, we gain a little understanding about our nature and the nature of our reality. Our listener must consider what is said, even if to make an agree-disagree decision. That is a most powerful tool for personal progression. The key is being candid and nondogmatic.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Sy Borg »

Gertie wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 9:22 am I'm similar to Sy Borg, ''infotainment'' sounds right. I like understanding things at a fundamental level (the detailed technicalities usually bore me).
Yes. Some here speak of idle curiosity as if it's a waste of time, that everyone should ideally be devoting all of their energies to a great cause. To actualise their vastly underestimated potentials as human beings!

Fair enough. That's their path.

Me, though, I'm just interested in the weirdness of this journey that has lead from molecular clouds in space to intelligent life which will lead to ...? Humans don't appear to be the end of evolution, certainly not when we look at our potentials and the number of dopey apes out there for whom logic is anathema. Definitely room for improvement. The nature of subjectivity itself also intrigues and mystifies me.

There's not many people with whom one can chat about such things. Occasionally I forget myself and, while walking the dog, I'll assail some other unsuspecting dog walker with existential blah. They tend to smile and be polite. And then they politely flee. So here I am :)

Sure, there's a lot of people here with "attitude", who rhetorically mug you out of the blue. But there are also those like you who are calm and curious, up for a relaxed chat about the nature of reality, who make the forum worthwhile. Call it philosophy, science, spirituality - I don't care. The activity, broadly, is just trying to better understand what's going on within us, outside of us, the relationship between inside and outside and future prospects.
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Nick_A »

Hi Gertie
I'm similar to Sy Borg, ''infotainment'' sounds right. I like understanding things at a fundamental level (the detailed technicalities usually bore me).
What do you mean by "understanding things at a fundamental level?" For example one of the great questions of the heart is why we suffer. Can a person answer this question by dualistic reason philosophically assuming that philosophy is defined as the love of wisdom? It seems to me more is necessary to experience at a fundamental level.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Tom Butler wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 1:09 pm If I was to start a new system of thought, I would replace the Golden Rule of "Do unto others..."
I recently discovered a better variant of the Golden Rule. Not "Do unto others as you would be done by", but "Do unto others as they would be done by".

Treating someone else as you would wish to be treated in their situation doesn't always result in the happy outcome we hope for. If you found me outside a football ground, I wouldn't want help to get in, I would want help to escape! Yes, a jokey example, but it makes the point. There are more serious examples.
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Gertie »

Sy Borg wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:56 pm
Gertie wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 9:22 am I'm similar to Sy Borg, ''infotainment'' sounds right. I like understanding things at a fundamental level (the detailed technicalities usually bore me).
Yes. Some here speak of idle curiosity as if it's a waste of time, that everyone should ideally be devoting all of their energies to a great cause. To actualise their vastly underestimated potentials as human beings!

Fair enough. That's their path.

Me, though, I'm just interested in the weirdness of this journey that has lead from molecular clouds in space to intelligent life which will lead to ...? Humans don't appear to be the end of evolution, certainly not when we look at our potentials and the number of dopey apes out there for whom logic is anathema. Definitely room for improvement. The nature of subjectivity itself also intrigues and mystifies me.

There's not many people with whom one can chat about such things. Occasionally I forget myself and, while walking the dog, I'll assail some other unsuspecting dog walker with existential blah. They tend to smile and be polite. And then they politely flee. So here I am :)

Sure, there's a lot of people here with "attitude", who rhetorically mug you out of the blue. But there are also those like you who are calm and curious, up for a relaxed chat about the nature of reality, who make the forum worthwhile. Call it philosophy, science, spirituality - I don't care. The activity, broadly, is just trying to better understand what's going on within us, outside of us, the relationship between inside and outside and future prospects.
nicely put :)

The relationship between the inside and outside, subjectivity, consciousness is the thing I'd say I've come to see as central too, and endlessly fascinating.
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Tom Butler »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 7th, 2021, 11:38 am
I recently discovered a better variant of the Golden Rule. Not "Do unto others as you would be done by", but "Do unto others as they would be done by".

Treating someone else as you would wish to be treated in their situation doesn't always result in the happy outcome we hope for. If you found me outside a football ground, I wouldn't want help to get in, I would want help to escape! Yes, a jokey example, but it makes the point. There are more serious examples.
:) That is a good example.

To me, the problem is that the "do unto others" concept does not actually work. Our primary driver of behavior is the genetic urge to assure dominance of our gene pool above all others. In effect, doing others a kindness ... at least some times ... simply helps them dominate us. Instincts represent human nature that few people have learned to moderate.

I have found that "A Personal Code of Ethics for the Mindful Way" (https://ethericstudies.org/code-of-ethics/) at least makes more sense. Morality is usually expressed as a code of conduct designed to assure employees do not embarrass the company. Morals tend to be local while ethics tend to be universal. Metaphysically, I would place ethics as more fundamental than morals.

My personal code of ethics begins with "Do not variolate" where "violate" is defined by Jane Roberts' Seth. http://www.sethlearningcenter.org/
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Gertie »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 7th, 2021, 11:38 am
Tom Butler wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 1:09 pm If I was to start a new system of thought, I would replace the Golden Rule of "Do unto others..."
I recently discovered a better variant of the Golden Rule. Not "Do unto others as you would be done by", but "Do unto others as they would be done by".

Treating someone else as you would wish to be treated in their situation doesn't always result in the happy outcome we hope for. If you found me outside a football ground, I wouldn't want help to get in, I would want help to escape! Yes, a jokey example, but it makes the point. There are more serious examples.
This is sometimes called The Platinum Rule.

I think ''Try to be kind'' encompasses this, because it asks you think about where the other person is at. But gives you the leeway to consider treating you as you wish to be treated isn't always for the best either.
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Tom Butler »

Gertie wrote: July 7th, 2021, 7:46 pm
I think ''Try to be kind'' encompasses this,
You are probably right. Having the intention to be kind at least suggests the need to stop and consider if what we are about to say or do is kind. Considering that firewall that seems to isolate our intention from our development of perception, it is that "stop and think" part that seems important.
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Sy Borg »

Gertie wrote: July 7th, 2021, 7:10 pm
Sy Borg wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 8:56 pm
Gertie wrote: July 3rd, 2021, 9:22 am I'm similar to Sy Borg, ''infotainment'' sounds right. I like understanding things at a fundamental level (the detailed technicalities usually bore me).
Yes. Some here speak of idle curiosity as if it's a waste of time, that everyone should ideally be devoting all of their energies to a great cause. To actualise their vastly underestimated potentials as human beings!

Fair enough. That's their path.

Me, though, I'm just interested in the weirdness of this journey that has lead from molecular clouds in space to intelligent life which will lead to ...? Humans don't appear to be the end of evolution, certainly not when we look at our potentials and the number of dopey apes out there for whom logic is anathema. Definitely room for improvement. The nature of subjectivity itself also intrigues and mystifies me.

There's not many people with whom one can chat about such things. Occasionally I forget myself and, while walking the dog, I'll assail some other unsuspecting dog walker with existential blah. They tend to smile and be polite. And then they politely flee. So here I am :)

Sure, there's a lot of people here with "attitude", who rhetorically mug you out of the blue. But there are also those like you who are calm and curious, up for a relaxed chat about the nature of reality, who make the forum worthwhile. Call it philosophy, science, spirituality - I don't care. The activity, broadly, is just trying to better understand what's going on within us, outside of us, the relationship between inside and outside and future prospects.
nicely put :)

The relationship between the inside and outside, subjectivity, consciousness is the thing I'd say I've come to see as central too, and endlessly fascinating.
It's so incredibly strange. There's no good reason to be conscious. We could do all the same things as sophisticated robots or zombies, but we don't.

I also suspect that biology's perception of time and space is inherently skewed. In universal terms we are Flatlanders, locked to the relatively 2D surface of the Earth, which is why astronauts are so deeply affected, usually changed for life, upon seeing the Earth at a distance. Certainly today's physics treats time very differently to our usual relationship to it.

The quantum/relativity divide is another interesting teaser, but I cannot get my head around it. The best I can think of is that these very small entities are hyper-reactive, seemingly impacted by everything, just as at larger scales, pretty well everything can push around or crush a fairyfly.
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: July 7th, 2021, 9:20 pm The quantum/relativity divide is another interesting teaser, but I cannot get my head around it. The best I can think of is that these very small entities are hyper-reactive, seemingly impacted by everything, just as at larger scales, pretty well everything can push around or crush a fairyfly.
I'm not sure, but I think that quantum and relativistic effects happen at all scales. It's just that, at large scales, quantum effects are swamped by other things, while at small scales, it's relativistic effects that are swamped. Does that make sense?
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Sy Borg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 8th, 2021, 9:25 am
Sy Borg wrote: July 7th, 2021, 9:20 pm The quantum/relativity divide is another interesting teaser, but I cannot get my head around it. The best I can think of is that these very small entities are hyper-reactive, seemingly impacted by everything, just as at larger scales, pretty well everything can push around or crush a fairyfly.
I'm not sure, but I think that quantum and relativistic effects happen at all scales. It's just that, at large scales, quantum effects are swamped by other things, while at small scales, it's relativistic effects that are swamped. Does that make sense?
Theory has it that gravity is insignificant at quantum scales, where the nuclear forces and EM rule. In a way, QM is like biochem. The concepts are super-interesting but, once I start digging, the technical detail does me in.
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: July 8th, 2021, 11:25 pm Theory has it that gravity is insignificant at quantum scales, where the nuclear forces and EM rule. In a way, QM is like biochem. The concepts are super-interesting but, once I start digging, the technical detail does me in.
Yes, I studied and used Schrodinger's wave equation at university. Even that, superficial, use of it was pretty mind-bending. Wasn't it the prophet Feynman who said that no-one really understands QM?
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Re: Is philosophy for real, or is it just an academic amusement?

Post by Protagoras »

Philosophy is therapy and/or a means to hide from life's fears.

I don't think many philosophers actually live up to their philosophy in real life.

It can be a form of escapism or trying to create "mental security".
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