Authenticity

[chewybrian]

What is it?
Is it important?
Can you find it?
Should you try?

(I am thinking of authenticity as described by the existentialists, but I wouldn't mind if someone wants to go a different way)

I think it is easier to define authenticity by what it is not. It is not categorizing the world and refusing to see what does not fit into the categories you have created or accepted. It is not trying to be what you think others would like you to be, or acting in anticipation of being rewarded for the nature of your actions. It is not choosing religion over God, or money over happiness, or providing for your family over loving them. It is not choosing descriptions of reality that allow you to pursue your base desires and call them virtues, or avoid your fears and call that avoidance noble. It is not trying to see the world as the symbols we have created to describe the world.

But, authenticity is less about the world and more about yourself. You shouldn't be lying to others, but more importantly, you shouldn't be fooling yourself, convincing yourself that a convenient lie is true. It is about changing yourself into the type of person who actions can align with their beliefs. You can't just do the 'right thing' because you want to gain rewards, avoid punishments, or be seen as a good person. You must work on yourself until you want to do what you view as the right thing, and you don't care if there is no external reward, or if someone else might not believe it is right.

I think this is a critical concept to adapt if you want to be better and hopefully happier. The danger is that we are all too apt to substitute our symbols for reality. At the end of the line, you have people considering themselves Christians while they tortured and killed people in the crusades, or when they discriminated or even killed people based on their race, religion, sexual orientation and such. I'd say the world often rewards and embraces inauthentic actions, so seeking authenticity will never be easy. It can be worthwhile, and it can also be dangerous and costly. If you lose your job or your friend or the respect of a community of phonies, maybe none of these were worth seeking in the first place. But, if you lose your freedom or your life, maybe you paid too much.

[AmericanKestrel]

What is it?
Is it important?
Can you find it?
Should you try?

I think it is easier to define authenticity by what it is not.

It is being comfortable with, accepting of, and at peace with my Self. That is not a state that is simple or easy to arrive at but worth trying. It is important if you value joy.
What it is is mostly subjective. It is objective to the extent that we can sense what it is not in person, things, and in actions.

[AverageBozo]

What is neither dishonest nor hypocritical is authentic. Authenticity is to be treasured and therefore worthy of pursuit.

To find authenticity in others is at best an assumption and at worst a guess. We can observe the behavior of others and judge that behavior against our own standards and values. However, we do not have access to the intentions of others. Without such access we cannot know whether those intentions are sincere and consistent with the actions of others, or are inauthentic.

Authenticity is worthy of pursuit but impossible to find. Better to assume than to search fruitlessly for the presence, or absence, of authenticity.

[Nick_A]

Chewybrian

But, authenticity is less about the world and more about yourself. You shouldn't be lying to others, but more importantly, you shouldn't be fooling yourself, convincing yourself that a convenient lie is true. It is about changing yourself into the type of person who actions can align with their beliefs. You can't just do the 'right thing' because you want to gain rewards, avoid punishments, or be seen as a good person. You must work on yourself until you want to do what you view as the right thing, and you don't care if there is no external reward, or if someone else might not believe it is right.

A good question for Independence Day. From the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Are human rights the result of perennial truths given from above which sustain the purpose of our universe or are the existentialists right and the universe has no purpose? If that is true Man is only accountable to his own sense of values. But values change. The values of an eighteen year old is different from a thirty year old and still different from a sixty year old. A person can be different but authentic at eighteen and also at sixty

Plato suggests that the soul is out of balance and lacks inner harmony so as he is cannot be an authentic human being. Authenticity for the balanced soul is expressing human purpose so is objectively aware of what being authentic is through a developed human conscience as opposed to the indoctrination normal for the unbalanced soul in the prison of Plato's cave

[chewybrian]

What is neither dishonest nor hypocritical is authentic. Authenticity is to be treasured and therefore worthy of pursuit.

To find authenticity in others is at best an assumption and at worst a guess. We can observe the behavior of others and judge that behavior against our own standards and values. However, we do not have access to the intentions of others. Without such access we cannot know whether those intentions are sincere and consistent with the actions of others, or are inauthentic.

Authenticity is worthy of pursuit but impossible to find. Better to assume than to search fruitlessly for the presence, or absence, of authenticity.

I wasn't thinking in terms of seeing authenticity in others. It would be a wonderful trait to see in anyone else, when you are convinced that you see it. Of course, you'll never know for certain when others are being genuine, but we are often guessing, unless we are banking on prior assessments of that person.

Actually, I'd say it's hard enough to see in yourself. You have to keep undoing and rebuilding your assumptions to see that they still pass the test. It's just so natural to justify our wishes to ourselves, or to justify running from our fears, that it seems we must be on guard all the time to be authentic.

I would also submit that doing so is a gift to the rest of the world when we succeed (if we are not nuts). We are projecting to the world the way we would like everyone to behave in similar circumstances. If everyone was putting in a good effort at this all the time, I would think the world would be better. So, if you are trying, then you can say you are doing something to help create a better world, by acts or by setting an example or both.

[chewybrian]

Are human rights the result of perennial truths given from above which sustain the purpose of our universe or are the existentialists right and the universe has no purpose? If that is true Man is only accountable to his own sense of values. But values change. The values of an eighteen year old is different from a thirty year old and still different from a sixty year old. A person can be different but authentic at eighteen and also at sixty

Don't forget Kierkegaard. I'm sure he would have seen a purpose in the universe, or at least assumed that God had his purpose. For him, existentialism was about direct contact with God rather than rituals and symbols and ministers in the Church. To be authentic in your religion, you would believe in God in your own mind, when nobody was looking. I also think you can be an authentic atheist, like Sartre. Of course, he had his faults (cough...drugs and hookers...cough). But he was also, seemingly, quite genuine in living simply despite having the opportunity to be wealthy, and following his political convictions, turning down the Legion of Honor and the Pulitzer prize. I'd say you can be an authentic agnostic as well, as I might aspire to be some day (unless my beliefs change along the way).

I think you are quite accurate to point out that authenticity is always a moving target. How could it not be? If you are going to fold your arms and declare your authenticity, this stance would not be authentic, because you would shut down the opportunity to grow, or to just admit when you have been wrong. The authentic person would be keen to grow when they could and ready to admit when they were wrong and to take a new, better path.

[Terrapin Station]

Authenticity is about being aware of, comfortable with, and then expressing/realizing one's unique dispositions, desires, attitudes, beliefs, etc., whatever they might be--they could be anything--without making compromises in that that one isn't comfortable with, that frustrate one, etc. BUT ultimately doing so in a way that's "maximizable" given social reality. So it can involve making some "smart" compromises that keep one out of prison, that keep one alive, with the maximum possible opportunities that enable authentic action.

[Terrapin Station]

Things like drugs, hookers, greed/pursuing wealth, etc. can all be part of your authenticity. It just depends on your dispositions, desires, etc. Again, the way you are can be oriented towards anything imaginable.And if you're someone who really enjoys, really wants to do drugs, really wants to enjoy hookers, etc., then being uncomfortable with that, trying to change it because you think you're "supposed to," etc. would NOT be authenticity. The only compromises should be those that enable you to maximize realizing your dispositions, desires, etc.

And of course, the way you are can (and most likely will) change over time, so what counts as authenticity for someone will change at least a bit over time.

[Steve3007]

It is not categorizing the world and refusing to see what does not fit into the categories you have created or accepted. It is not trying to be what you think others would like you to be, or acting in anticipation of being rewarded for the nature of your actions. It is not choosing religion over God, or money over happiness, or providing for your family over loving them. It is not choosing descriptions of reality that allow you to pursue your base desires and call them virtues, or avoid your fears and call that avoidance noble. It is not trying to see the world as the symbols we have created to describe the world.

Take the words of Kipling (If), Polonius (Speech giving advice to Laertes in Hamlet) and Mr Spock (Spock Thoughts)

and mix well. I think that covers it.

[Steve3007]

Of those, I guess The famous line from Polonius' speech sums it up:

"This above all: to thine ownself be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."

But my favourite, in the context of this philosophy club, is Mr Spock's:

"Avoid loud and aggressive persons
They are vexations to the soul."

(In the link above it says "vexations to this Earth" but that's not how it goes on the version I have on the CD of Shatner and Nimoy's greatest hits.)

[mystery]

But, authenticity is less about the world and more about yourself. You shouldn't be lying to others, but more importantly, you shouldn't be fooling yourself, convincing yourself that a convenient lie is true. It is about changing yourself into the type of person who actions can align with their beliefs. You can't just do the 'right thing' because you want to gain rewards, avoid punishments, or be seen as a good person. You must work on yourself until you want to do what you view as the right thing, and you don't care if there is no external reward, or if someone else might not believe it is right.

This is good. Don't ever look to others for validation, and definitely do not make adjustments so as to get the same.

Don't worry about if others are authentic, it doesn't matter. What we care about is what they do. If others are not authentic but do all things we like, that is ok. For ourselves, we shall also do what we wish to do.

When we wish to do what we wish to do and do so, then we are authentic.

[chewybrian]

Things like drugs, hookers, greed/pursuing wealth, etc. can all be part of your authenticity. It just depends on your dispositions, desires, etc. Again, the way you are can be oriented towards anything imaginable.And if you're someone who really enjoys, really wants to do drugs, really wants to enjoy hookers, etc., then being uncomfortable with that, trying to change it because you think you're "supposed to," etc. would NOT be authenticity.

When I first encountered Sarte in High School, this is the understanding I had of authenticity. I was being true to myself if I didn't restrain my own actions. I was freed to do what I wanted, rather than compelled to do what I thought was right. That didn't work out too well for me, even though initially it was very liberating.

I've grown to have a much different, and I think, more proper and useful interpretation. I am setting an example in the world with each choice I make. I have to align my actions with the way I would like others to behave in similar circumstances, so that I am doing my part to help to create the world in which I want to live. For example, if I really enjoy littering, but don't enjoy living in a world filled with litter, then I must examine my actions in this light, and I will probably conclude that I should not litter. So, I can't just run out and do what I want, but rather must try to do what I think that I should (but not what others might think I should do, unless it coincides). Ultimately, I should come to see that my own life is better when doing what I think is right. My self-respect earned by not littering should be greater than the enjoyment of the convenience of littering.

As you said, authenticity can definitely be very different over time, and probably should be as you learn and grow.

[Nick_A]

.............Plato prove that justice does not depend upon a chance, convention or upon external force. It is the right condition of the human soul by the very nature of man when seen in the fullness of his environment. It is in this way that Plato condemned the position taken by Glaucon that justice is something which is external. According to Plato, it is internal as it resides in the human soul. "It is now regarded as an inward grace and its understanding is shown to involve a study of the inner man." It is, therefore, natural and no artificial. It is therefore, not born of fear of the weak but of the longing of the human soul to do a duty according to its nature...............

A person can be authentic while they are killing another. A truly indoctrinated person is authentic. I think the real question is justice and how it relates to wisdom. Can I know what is authentic in me as it relates to the love of wisdom without knowledge of the inner man? According to Plato the unbalanced tripartite soul must lack the pursuit of wisdom since we are opposed to ourselves.

What if justice is the right condition of the human soul which the fallen human condition deprives us of? Then we are limited to concerns over what we DO but oblivious of what we ARE so consequently, can never grow as a species.

[Sculptor1]

.............Plato prove that justice does not depend upon a chance, convention or upon external force. It is the right condition of the human soul by the very nature of man when seen in the fullness of his environment. It is in this way that Plato condemned the position taken by Glaucon that justice is something which is external. According to Plato, it is internal as it resides in the human soul. "It is now regarded as an inward grace and its understanding is shown to involve a study of the inner man." It is, therefore, natural and no artificial. It is therefore, not born of fear of the weak but of the longing of the human soul to do a duty according to its nature...............

A person can be authentic while they are killing another. A truly indoctrinated person is authentic. I think the real question is justice and how it relates to wisdom. Can I know what is authentic in me as it relates to the love of wisdom without knowledge of the inner man? According to Plato the unbalanced tripartite soul must lack the pursuit of wisdom since we are opposed to ourselves.

What if justice is the right condition of the human soul which the fallen human condition deprives us of? Then we are limited to concerns over what we DO but oblivious of what we ARE so consequently, can never grow as a species.

I looked for the source of that quote because it is so obviously misguided. Plato, as usual expressed many opinions, in matter like this the word "PROVE" is simple wrong.

LINK bu. edu wcp Papers Anci/AnciBhan. etc

I do not know who D.R. Bhandari is or where J.N.V. University exists.

[Terrapin Station]

Things like drugs, hookers, greed/pursuing wealth, etc. can all be part of your authenticity. It just depends on your dispositions, desires, etc. Again, the way you are can be oriented towards anything imaginable.And if you're someone who really enjoys, really wants to do drugs, really wants to enjoy hookers, etc., then being uncomfortable with that, trying to change it because you think you're "supposed to," etc. would NOT be authenticity.

When I first encountered Sarte in High School, this is the understanding I had of authenticity. I was being true to myself if I didn't restrain my own actions. I was freed to do what I wanted, rather than compelled to do what I thought was right. That didn't work out too well for me, even though initially it was very liberating.

If you were ignoring what you dispositionally felt was right ethically, then you weren't being authentic. Authenticity is about ALL of your dispositions, desires, attitudes, etc., not just some of them.

And yeah, some of those can conflict, but then authenticity involves introspecting and figuring out which dispositions feel right to you on balance.