Authenticity

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Re: Authenticity

Post by psyreporter »

chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am What is it?
Is it important?
Can you find it?
Should you try?
In my opinion, authenticity may be a key for human performance and is directly tied to the question "What is the meaning of life?".

Many people in the modern world see 'having fun' as the highest goal or purpose of life. When one uses value in the world as "meaning of life", what will happen when that value is lost? For example, when life may appear unbearable, how will one possibly find motivation to overcome the problems?

Some people cannot accept the idea that 'having fun' is the meaning of life. Some people question deeper and upon the consideration that there must be "a meaning of life" to be able to consider an aim in life to be meaningful, they potentially discover a deep abyss with no ground in sight and may find great difficulty to establish a convincing (authentic) mindset that provides purpose - a driving force or motivation - for their individual life.

Authenticity would be the key. When one grasps for a ground, one can find that it is not so easy to accept the value in the world (e.g. having a good time) as the meaning of life.

Why does value exist? Why should one create value? Why anything at all?

One then derives at the question "What is the meaning of life?" which isn't about having a good time. It is about something deeper, about the origin of emotions, about the origin of a feeling of purpose and fulfillment, about the origin of anything at all.

People who question so deeply may be motivated by authenticity. Without authenticity on a deeper level, one would lose one's identity and mind. The question can make one aware that his/her mental foundation isn't as secure as one may expect to be normal, which may result in anxiety and ideas leading to suicide.

Authenticity and finding meaning in life may be a key for talent, art and human performance. Many talented and top performing people have struggled with the question, which shows that the origin of the question may be something fundamental and that despite having success, thousands of friends and a rich social life, the question (or inability to answer it) is just as critical.

The simplest departure from pure randomness implies value. This is evidence that all that can be seen in the world - from the simplest pattern onward - is value.

The origin of value is necessarily meaningful but cannot be value by the simple logical truth that something cannot originate from itself. This implies that a meaning of life is applicable on a fundamental level (a priori or "before value").

Based on this logic, my argument is that it is relevant to consider whether a purpose of life is applicable to be considered as precursor to any value in the world, which would be a quest for authenticity when translated to the scope of human existence.
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Re: Authenticity

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Sculptor1 wrote: July 6th, 2021, 12:27 pm
Nick_A wrote: July 6th, 2021, 10:29 am
.............Plato prove that justice does not depend upon a chance, convention or upon external force. It is the right condition of the human soul by the very nature of man when seen in the fullness of his environment. It is in this way that Plato condemned the position taken by Glaucon that justice is something which is external. According to Plato, it is internal as it resides in the human soul. "It is now regarded as an inward grace and its understanding is shown to involve a study of the inner man." It is, therefore, natural and no artificial. It is therefore, not born of fear of the weak but of the longing of the human soul to do a duty according to its nature...............
A person can be authentic while they are killing another. A truly indoctrinated person is authentic. I think the real question is justice and how it relates to wisdom. Can I know what is authentic in me as it relates to the love of wisdom without knowledge of the inner man? According to Plato the unbalanced tripartite soul must lack the pursuit of wisdom since we are opposed to ourselves.

What if justice is the right condition of the human soul which the fallen human condition deprives us of? Then we are limited to concerns over what we DO but oblivious of what we ARE so consequently, can never grow as a species.

I looked for the source of that quote because it is so obviously misguided. Plato, as usual expressed many opinions, in matter like this the word "PROVE" is simple wrong.

LINK bu. edu wcp Papers Anci/AnciBhan. etc

I do not know who D.R. Bhandari is or where J.N.V. University exists.
Jai Narain Vyas University (JNVU, formerly known as University of Jodhpur) is an educational institution in Jodhpur city in the Indian state of Rajasthan. Established in 1962, the university took over the four colleges of Jodhpur run by the state government. In 2005 the university became the first in its state to receive an "A" grade ranking by the National Assessment and Accreditation Council.
https://www.bu.edu/wcp/Papers/Anci/AnciBhan.htm

Seems right to me. What if justice is the right condition of the human soul and the fallen human condition doesn't allow conscience to "feel" it? Only sincere efforts to "Know Thyself" can prove it one way or the other. But who has the need, will, and the courage, to transcend the desire to imagine oneself for the sake of self knowledge? Few and far between.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: Authenticity

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Nick_A wrote: July 6th, 2021, 10:29 am A person can be authentic while they are killing another. A truly indoctrinated person is authentic.
I like the rest, but I'm not sure I agree with this bit. I assume you don't mean a case of self-defense or the defense of a helpless child or some such situation. But an authentic killer would be someone who wants the world to be killed, including himself. So, perhaps only in that case could they be authentic, though you might also think them insane and therefore incapable of meaningful authenticity, incapable of a fair analysis of themselves.

I began with a consideration of authenticity in the sense put forth by the existentialists. If you want to talk about it in some other sense, I'm OK with that. But, the existentialists had their own version of Kant's categorical imperative. They restate this in terms that emphasize the subjective and free will. In each choice, I am choosing by extension for all of mankind. I am helping to create the world in which I wish to live if I am acting with authenticity. This is from "Existentialism is a Humanism", by Sartre:
And when we say that man takes responsibility for himself, we say more than that - he is in his
choices responsible for all men. All our acts of creating ourselves create at the same time an
image of man such as we believe he must be. Thus, our personal responsibility is vast, because
it engages all humanity.
...
Each man must say to himself: am I right to set the standard for all humanity? To deny that is to
mask the anguish. When, for example, a military leader sends men to their deaths, he may have
his orders, but at the bottom it is he alone who chooses.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Authenticity

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Nick_A wrote: July 6th, 2021, 6:29 pm

Seems right to me. What if justice is the right condition of the human soul and the fallen human condition doesn't allow conscience to "feel" it? Only sincere efforts to "Know Thyself" can prove it one way or the other. But who has the need, will, and the courage, to transcend the desire to imagine oneself for the sake of self knowledge? Few and far between.
THe word "prove" is simply wrong. I suppose the moral of this story is that the NAAC in India is not worthy. Or it might be that Bhandari is just a poor scholar.
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Re: Authenticity

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chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am What is it?
Is it important?
Can you find it?
Should you try?


(I am thinking of authenticity as described by the existentialists, but I wouldn't mind if someone wants to go a different way)
I am wondering how, in general terms, "authenticity" differs from "truth", in a philosophical sense and (hopefully) the context of this topic? They seem very similar to me.
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Re: Authenticity

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Pattern-chaser wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:00 pm
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am What is it?
Is it important?
Can you find it?
Should you try?


(I am thinking of authenticity as described by the existentialists, but I wouldn't mind if someone wants to go a different way)
I am wondering how, in general terms, "authenticity" differs from "truth", in a philosophical sense and (hopefully) the context of this topic? They seem very similar to me.
Authenticity in this sense refers to the subjective state of mind of the individual, or their manner of engaging with the world, where truth is an objective state of reality. I can only be authentic by acting in a certain way which is specific to me. No matter how I act, truth is unaffected. You approach authenticity when your actions are consistent with your beliefs, and your beliefs are formed by a best effort to find the truth. Yet you can know the truth and still be a liar or a phony, and therefore not be authentic.

Your authenticity will probably not look like mine, and may change over time. We could be very different and yet both be authentic, and there need not be a problem with this. If we are both reasonably bright and aware yet believe very different 'truths' about the same set of circumstances, then there is a problem somewhere.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Authenticity

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chewybrian wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:27 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:00 pm
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am What is it?
Is it important?
Can you find it?
Should you try?


(I am thinking of authenticity as described by the existentialists, but I wouldn't mind if someone wants to go a different way)
I am wondering how, in general terms, "authenticity" differs from "truth", in a philosophical sense and (hopefully) the context of this topic? They seem very similar to me.
Authenticity in this sense refers to the subjective state of mind of the individual, or their manner of engaging with the world, where truth is an objective state of reality. I can only be authentic by acting in a certain way which is specific to me. No matter how I act, truth is unaffected. You approach authenticity when your actions are consistent with your beliefs, and your beliefs are formed by a best effort to find the truth. Yet you can know the truth and still be a liar or a phony, and therefore not be authentic.

Your authenticity will probably not look like mine, and may change over time. We could be very different and yet both be authentic, and there need not be a problem with this. If we are both reasonably bright and aware yet believe very different 'truths' about the same set of circumstances, then there is a problem somewhere.
I like how you are starting this idea. I would add that authenticity is consistency in the following three steps (that I think you were alluding to). Your interpretation of what you observe, your worldview or philosophy or moral standard based on those interpretations and your behavior, given that moral standard.
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Re: Authenticity

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chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am
I think it is easier to define authenticity by what it is not. It is not categorizing the world and refusing to see what does not fit into the categories you have created or accepted. It is not trying to be what you think others would like you to be, or acting in anticipation of being rewarded for the nature of your actions. It is not choosing religion over God, or money over happiness, or providing for your family over loving them. It is not choosing descriptions of reality that allow you to pursue your base desires and call them virtues, or avoid your fears and call that avoidance noble. It is not trying to see the world as the symbols we have created to describe the world.
I think your negations are somewhat overlapping, leaving very little room for authenticity.
Surely authenticity means finding out who the hell you are and how you want to live your life regardless of other's opinions. Surely it means nothing if it is not about rejecting the norms and endemic assumptions about reality and picking from them the stuff that you can live with and feel complete.
So lets take your statements one at a time.
1) It is not trying to be what you think others would like you to be, or acting in anticipation of being rewarded for the nature of your actions.
If you can imagine the sort of person that feels fulfilled by doing these things, then where would their authenticity be for following som other course of action?

2) It is not choosing religion over God, or money over happiness, or providing for your family over loving them.
I can imagine a person for whom these adverse actions would be happy. You can know religion, but how can you know god? If you feel fulfilled by becoming a religious person and rejecting your family as Jesus commands you in Matthew then is that not being authentic to your one self be true? And if that means strapping on a suicide vest to do your duty is that not authentic? Is duty never authentic?

3) It is not choosing descriptions of reality that allow you to pursue your base desires and call them virtues, or avoid your fears and call that avoidance noble. It is not trying to see the world as the symbols we have created to describe the world.

You seem to have a problem with the persuit of base desires. But what could be more authentic than be true to your deepest desires or more noble than having the courage to enact upon them regardless of what society tells you? Talk to any homosexual who has had to live through times when they were declared an illegal person.
Some fear are usefull. And worth heeding, surely?
Your last sentence here - not sure where you are going with that.



But, authenticity is less about the world and more about yourself. You shouldn't be lying to others, but more importantly, you shouldn't be fooling yourself, convincing yourself that a convenient lie is true. It is about changing yourself into the type of person who actions can align with their beliefs.
Lying can be authentic to a born liar.
Authenticity is, for me, rejecting all beleif and seeking to know, and that knowledge being justifuable.
You can't just do the 'right thing' because you want to gain rewards, avoid punishments, or be seen as a good person. You must work on yourself until you want to do what you view as the right thing, and you don't care if there is no external reward, or if someone else might not believe it is right.
What is right?

I think this is a critical concept to adapt if you want to be better and hopefully happier. The danger is that we are all too apt to substitute our symbols for reality. At the end of the line, you have people considering themselves Christians while they tortured and killed people in the crusades, or when they discriminated or even killed people based on their race, religion, sexual orientation and such. I'd say the world often rewards and embraces inauthentic actions, so seeking authenticity will never be easy. It can be worthwhile, and it can also be dangerous and costly. If you lose your job or your friend or the respect of a community of phonies, maybe none of these were worth seeking in the first place. But, if you lose your freedom or your life, maybe you paid too much.
Authenticity is growing up in the world. Discovering yourself. And being you and not another person.
It is not about doing the right thing. Because what is "right" is objectively defined, and so not true.
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Re: Authenticity

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LuckyR wrote: July 8th, 2021, 2:23 am I like how you are starting this idea. I would add that authenticity is consistency in the following three steps (that I think you were alluding to). Your interpretation of what you observe, your worldview or philosophy or moral standard based on those interpretations and your behavior, given that moral standard.
I think what you said makes sense in that it would be a process of steps. You observe the state of the world, make assessments about what is happening and what it implies, and what would be the proper course of action. Then you reflect on your actions to see if you did the right thing, and maybe tweak or change your assessment for next time.

But, I think the idea of a worldview or standard can become a problem, if you etch it in stone. People are apt to do this. It seems like our brain is wired to put as much as possible on the back burner, through heuristics or some other process, so that we can focus on staying alive or completing important goals. If we are not careful, we take things as 'givens' based on past experiences and the result is that we may not be authentic in the present. It's fine to have some general principles to guide you, but you just don't want to let them become commandments.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Authenticity

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Sculptor1 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:39 am
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am
I think it is easier to define authenticity by what it is not. It is not categorizing the world and refusing to see what does not fit into the categories you have created or accepted. It is not trying to be what you think others would like you to be, or acting in anticipation of being rewarded for the nature of your actions. It is not choosing religion over God, or money over happiness, or providing for your family over loving them. It is not choosing descriptions of reality that allow you to pursue your base desires and call them virtues, or avoid your fears and call that avoidance noble. It is not trying to see the world as the symbols we have created to describe the world.
I think your negations are somewhat overlapping, leaving very little room for authenticity.
Surely authenticity means finding out who the hell you are and how you want to live your life regardless of other's opinions. Surely it means nothing if it is not about rejecting the norms and endemic assumptions about reality and picking from them the stuff that you can live with and feel complete.
So lets take your statements one at a time.
1) It is not trying to be what you think others would like you to be, or acting in anticipation of being rewarded for the nature of your actions.
If you can imagine the sort of person that feels fulfilled by doing these things, then where would their authenticity be for following som other course of action?
I don't have to imagine this sort of person. I live in America; I am surrounded by them! The authentic person would be acting because they thought their actions were right, rewards or not. If your sole motivations are the approval of others or money or fame, then I don't think you are being authentic.
Sculptor1 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:39 am
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am2) It is not choosing religion over God, or money over happiness, or providing for your family over loving them.
I can imagine a person for whom these adverse actions would be happy. You can know religion, but how can you know god? If you feel fulfilled by becoming a religious person and rejecting your family as Jesus commands you in Matthew then is that not being authentic to your one self be true? And if that means strapping on a suicide vest to do your duty is that not authentic? Is duty never authentic?
Kierkegaard thought he knew God, and was rejecting the substitution of rituals over communion with God. He thought (rightly) that he saw this taking place in the state church. Did the people carrying out the Spanish inquisition think that Jesus commanded them to rip out peoples' entrails? Does that mesh with your understanding of what Jesus said? They might have thought they were doing their duty to the church. They were fulfilling their duty to the psychos that were running the church, but they had clearly lost sight of the principles upon which their religion was founded. They guy strapping on the vest and the guy ripping out intestines have both jumped the shark. Their actions are so inconsistent with their professed beliefs that they are at worst insane or at least lacking serious introspection, and therefore it is questionable that they should or could be considered authentic.
Sculptor1 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:39 am3)
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 ami]It is not choosing descriptions of reality that allow you to pursue your base desires and call them virtues, or avoid your fears and call that avoidance noble. It is not trying to see the world as the symbols we have created to describe the world.[/i]
You seem to have a problem with the persuit of base desires. But what could be more authentic than be true to your deepest desires or more noble than having the courage to enact upon them regardless of what society tells you? Talk to any homosexual who has had to live through times when they were declared an illegal person.
Some fear are usefull. And worth heeding, surely?
Yes, I have a problem with the pursuit of base desires. Who would want to become a stoic and not have this problem? This is among the first baby steps to becoming better and happy: to uncouple yourself from your desires, and to understand that they have no power over you unless you consent. Again, I live in America. My environment attempts to seduce me with my own desires at every turn. If I have no control over them, will I buy a soda at every machine I pass, will I smoke, drink, buy expensive crap that I don't need to try to impress people who don't even care (except maybe to resent me out of jealousy if I get what they want)? Does that sound like an examined life, that one driven by base desires?
Sculptor1 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:39 am
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am But, authenticity is less about the world and more about yourself. You shouldn't be lying to others, but more importantly, you shouldn't be fooling yourself, convincing yourself that a convenient lie is true. It is about changing yourself into the type of person who actions can align with their beliefs.
Lying can be authentic to a born liar.
Authenticity is, for me, rejecting all beleif and seeking to know, and that knowledge being justifuable.
Lying is not authentic behavior. The authentic person knows that whether it is their intent or not, their actions will set an example in the world for others of the way they think the world should be. They are careful to align their actions with their beliefs such that they would be happy if others acted as they did, along the lines of Kant's categorical imperative. Again, I am looking at authenticity in the terms put forward by the existentialists. It's fine if you want to discuss it in other terms, but perhaps it would help if you say whether you think that I have misinterpreted the existentialists, or whether you think the existentialists have it all wrong.

I don't quite hold with your definition of authenticity, though it is a good start. I think you must add the pursuit of wisdom, seeing beyond raw knowledge. You should try to do the right thing, though not as defined by the law or the scriptures, but by proceeding prudently with what knowledge you believe you have. It's not the right thing because the scripture says so, but also not because it is what you want(driven by your base desires). It is right because you believe it is right, after all the consideration you are able to muster.
Sculptor1 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:39 am
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 amYou can't just do the 'right thing' because you want to gain rewards, avoid punishments, or be seen as a good person. You must work on yourself until you want to do what you view as the right thing, and you don't care if there is no external reward, or if someone else might not believe it is right.
What is right?
see above
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Authenticity

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chewybrian wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:27 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:00 pm
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am What is it?
Is it important?
Can you find it?
Should you try?


(I am thinking of authenticity as described by the existentialists, but I wouldn't mind if someone wants to go a different way)
I am wondering how, in general terms, "authenticity" differs from "truth", in a philosophical sense and (hopefully) the context of this topic? They seem very similar to me.
Authenticity in this sense refers to the subjective state of mind of the individual, or their manner of engaging with the world, where truth is an objective state of reality. I can only be authentic by acting in a certain way which is specific to me. No matter how I act, truth is unaffected. You approach authenticity when your actions are consistent with your beliefs, and your beliefs are formed by a best effort to find the truth. Yet you can know the truth and still be a liar or a phony, and therefore not be authentic.
Excuse me for a senile buffoon! Authentic, even by its dictionary definition, means "genuine" more than "true". 😊 But what you say does bring it back toward truth, and you mention an example of someone not being authentic because they're lying, i.e. not telling the truth (as they know it).

"You approach authenticity when your actions are consistent with your beliefs" - but now I wonder, aren't we all authentic most of the time? I don't mean people don't lie or deceive. Even autists do this now and again (but not very often), and the rest of us do it regularly. And now we reach the point where I just admit to being baffled. Why would anyone not be authentic? That is, why would anyone act inconsistently with their own beliefs? Surely by doing so they oppose their own aims, whatever those are?

Can anyone enlighten me?
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Re: Authenticity

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chewybrian wrote: July 8th, 2021, 8:03 am
Sculptor1 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:39 am
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am
I think it is easier to define authenticity by what it is not. It is not categorizing the world and refusing to see what does not fit into the categories you have created or accepted. It is not trying to be what you think others would like you to be, or acting in anticipation of being rewarded for the nature of your actions. It is not choosing religion over God, or money over happiness, or providing for your family over loving them. It is not choosing descriptions of reality that allow you to pursue your base desires and call them virtues, or avoid your fears and call that avoidance noble. It is not trying to see the world as the symbols we have created to describe the world.
I think your negations are somewhat overlapping, leaving very little room for authenticity.
Surely authenticity means finding out who the hell you are and how you want to live your life regardless of other's opinions. Surely it means nothing if it is not about rejecting the norms and endemic assumptions about reality and picking from them the stuff that you can live with and feel complete.
So lets take your statements one at a time.
1) It is not trying to be what you think others would like you to be, or acting in anticipation of being rewarded for the nature of your actions.
If you can imagine the sort of person that feels fulfilled by doing these things, then where would their authenticity be for following som other course of action?
I don't have to imagine this sort of person. I live in America; I am surrounded by them! The authentic person would be acting because they thought their actions were right, rewards or not. If your sole motivations are the approval of others or money or fame, then I don't think you are being authentic.
But that is a contradiction since ALL instances of doing the right thing are always about the approval of others.
Sculptor1 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:39 am
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am2) It is not choosing religion over God, or money over happiness, or providing for your family over loving them.
I can imagine a person for whom these adverse actions would be happy. You can know religion, but how can you know god? If you feel fulfilled by becoming a religious person and rejecting your family as Jesus commands you in Matthew then is that not being authentic to your one self be true? And if that means strapping on a suicide vest to do your duty is that not authentic? Is duty never authentic?
Kierkegaard thought he knew God, and was rejecting the substitution of rituals over communion with God. He thought (rightly) that he saw this taking place in the state church.
I do not regard Keirkergaard as in any sense authentic, since inspite of himself he made himself the dupe of a god he could not have known, and was willing to create his own false reality that he knew a god that he could not. He was just replacing one set of fallacies for another.

Did the people carrying out the Spanish inquisition think that Jesus commanded them to rip out peoples' entrails? Does that mesh with your understanding of what Jesus said?

There is plenty in the bible to justify that. Not sure what sort of point you are trying to make here. What about all the other people that follow Jesus to the letter? Nothing I see here is authentic, since they are followers of the authors of the bible. But we cannot know what sort of person they are. Maybe ripping out entrails is completely consistent with some peoples desires and authentic needs?


They might have thought they were doing their duty to the church. They were fulfilling their duty to the psychos that were running the church, but they had clearly lost sight of the principles upon which their religion was founded.
SO is duty at all times completely inauthentic? Or is it just duties that you pesonally do not like?


They guy strapping on the vest and the guy ripping out intestines have both jumped the shark.
DOn't recognise the analogy
Their actions are so inconsistent with their professed beliefs that they are at worst insane or at least lacking serious introspection, and therefore it is questionable that they should or could be considered authentic.

tut tut. I would consdier ANY one signing up for military service exactly the same. I'm thinking that you would not?
Sculptor1 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:39 am3)
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 ami]It is not choosing descriptions of reality that allow you to pursue your base desires and call them virtues, or avoid your fears and call that avoidance noble. It is not trying to see the world as the symbols we have created to describe the world.[/i]
You seem to have a problem with the persuit of base desires. But what could be more authentic than be true to your deepest desires or more noble than having the courage to enact upon them regardless of what society tells you? Talk to any homosexual who has had to live through times when they were declared an illegal person.
Some fears are usefull. And worth heeding, surely?
Yes, I have a problem with the pursuit of base desires. Who would want to become a stoic and not have this problem? This is among the first baby steps to becoming better and happy: to uncouple yourself from your desires, and to understand that they have no power over you unless you consent. Again, I live in America. My environment attempts to seduce me with my own desires at every turn. If I have no control over them, will I buy a soda at every machine I pass, will I smoke, drink, buy expensive crap that I don't need to try to impress people who don't even care (except maybe to resent me out of jealousy if I get what they want)? Does that sound like an examined life, that one driven by base desires?

If you deny your desire then you are rejecting autneticity. SInce your passions are what make you the person you are.

Sculptor1 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:39 am
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am But, authenticity is less about the world and more about yourself. You shouldn't be lying to others, but more importantly, you shouldn't be fooling yourself, convincing yourself that a convenient lie is true. It is about changing yourself into the type of person who actions can align with their beliefs.
Lying can be authentic to a born liar.
Authenticity is, for me, rejecting all beleif and seeking to know, and that knowledge being justifuable.
Lying is not authentic behavior. The authentic person knows that whether it is their intent or not, their actions will set an example in the world for others of the way they think the world should be. They are careful to align their actions with their beliefs such that they would be happy if others acted as they did, along the lines of Kant's categorical imperative. Again, I am looking at authenticity in the terms put forward by the existentialists. It's fine if you want to discuss it in other terms, but perhaps it would help if you say whether you think that I have misinterpreted the existentialists, or whether you think the existentialists have it all wrong.

If you follow Kant you cannot be authentic. Following is not authenticity. Existentialist would not follow Kant.


I don't quite hold with your definition of authenticity, though it is a good start. I think you must add the pursuit of wisdom, seeing beyond raw knowledge. You should try to do the right thing, though not as defined by the law or the scriptures, but by proceeding prudently with what knowledge you believe you have. It's not the right thing because the scripture says so, but also not because it is what you want(driven by your base desires). It is right because you believe it is right, after all the consideration you are able to muster.

I doubt you have come anywhere near athenticity since you cannot extricate yourself from the emblandishements of your peri-christian assumptions. You are far from free in my view. You seem nervous about your humanity, but also nervous about following the "scriptures". Where is the YOU in all this? Deny your desire and you deny your true self; deny your self and you undemine your chance to be authentic.

Sculptor1 wrote: July 8th, 2021, 6:39 am
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 amYou can't just do the 'right thing' because you want to gain rewards, avoid punishments, or be seen as a good person. You must work on yourself until you want to do what you view as the right thing, and you don't care if there is no external reward, or if someone else might not believe it is right.
What is right?
see above
Not authentic
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Re: Authenticity

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 8th, 2021, 9:33 am
chewybrian wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:27 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:00 pm
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am What is it?
Is it important?
Can you find it?
Should you try?


(I am thinking of authenticity as described by the existentialists, but I wouldn't mind if someone wants to go a different way)
I am wondering how, in general terms, "authenticity" differs from "truth", in a philosophical sense and (hopefully) the context of this topic? They seem very similar to me.
Authenticity in this sense refers to the subjective state of mind of the individual, or their manner of engaging with the world, where truth is an objective state of reality. I can only be authentic by acting in a certain way which is specific to me. No matter how I act, truth is unaffected. You approach authenticity when your actions are consistent with your beliefs, and your beliefs are formed by a best effort to find the truth. Yet you can know the truth and still be a liar or a phony, and therefore not be authentic.
Excuse me for a senile buffoon! Authentic, even by its dictionary definition, means "genuine" more than "true". 😊 But what you say does bring it back toward truth, and you mention an example of someone not being authentic because they're lying, i.e. not telling the truth (as they know it).

"You approach authenticity when your actions are consistent with your beliefs" - but now I wonder, aren't we all authentic most of the time? I don't mean people don't lie or deceive. Even autists do this now and again (but not very often), and the rest of us do it regularly. And now we reach the point where I just admit to being baffled. Why would anyone not be authentic? That is, why would anyone act inconsistently with their own beliefs? Surely by doing so they oppose their own aims, whatever those are?

Can anyone enlighten me?
Authentic comes from the idea of author. To be authentic you must be the author of your own self. As any one knows most athors are the master of lies in the sense of writing fiction.
Being true to yourself is all that is important. Autheticity has zero regard for other people. That means a skepticism of all actions bound by "duty" or truthfulness for the sake of it. Authenticity also has nothing against deceiving others. It has no regard for others, since to be authentic is author oneself automonmously.
In my view, for many people being a lair is what makes them, and is perfectly authentic fro them to lie. For them the trick to maintain authenticity is to avoid beleiving their own lies.
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Re: Authenticity

Post by chewybrian »

Pattern-chaser wrote: July 8th, 2021, 9:33 am
chewybrian wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:27 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: July 7th, 2021, 12:00 pm
chewybrian wrote: July 5th, 2021, 8:35 am What is it?
Is it important?
Can you find it?
Should you try?


(I am thinking of authenticity as described by the existentialists, but I wouldn't mind if someone wants to go a different way)
I am wondering how, in general terms, "authenticity" differs from "truth", in a philosophical sense and (hopefully) the context of this topic? They seem very similar to me.
Authenticity in this sense refers to the subjective state of mind of the individual, or their manner of engaging with the world, where truth is an objective state of reality. I can only be authentic by acting in a certain way which is specific to me. No matter how I act, truth is unaffected. You approach authenticity when your actions are consistent with your beliefs, and your beliefs are formed by a best effort to find the truth. Yet you can know the truth and still be a liar or a phony, and therefore not be authentic.
Excuse me for a senile buffoon! Authentic, even by its dictionary definition, means "genuine" more than "true". 😊 But what you say does bring it back toward truth, and you mention an example of someone not being authentic because they're lying, i.e. not telling the truth (as they know it).

"You approach authenticity when your actions are consistent with your beliefs" - but now I wonder, aren't we all authentic most of the time? I don't mean people don't lie or deceive. Even autists do this now and again (but not very often), and the rest of us do it regularly. And now we reach the point where I just admit to being baffled. Why would anyone not be authentic? That is, why would anyone act inconsistently with their own beliefs? Surely by doing so they oppose their own aims, whatever those are?

Can anyone enlighten me?
The best excuse I can think of is fear. Say I am afraid to not fit in. Don't you think some people in Germany in 1939 or so were opposed to the aims or the methods of the Nazis? Surely, some of those opposed were too afraid to speak out. They not only feared punishment but the shame of not fitting in, when so many of their friends and neighbors must have appeared to be on board. They may have appeared as patriotic as the next man on the outside while deep down they were very troubled on the inside about the course of events, and would have opposed them if it was safe to speak out. When enough people feel this way, dissent becomes that much more difficult.

Of course, the situation doesn't have to be as serious as WWII. What about simple peer pressure getting people to do what they don't really want to do? The fear can be as simple as not wanting to be ostracized from the 'cool' group.

In other cases, I think it comes down to following your urges above your beliefs. If I am a drug addict but don't really aspire to be one, am I being authentic? Rather than facing up to the world as myself, I might choose to escape into a fantasy world like that for various reasons. I guess you can call it fear again if you wish.

I thought this would be fairly easy to explain, yet I'm not sure I got there. Maybe someone else can do better if this is not helping.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: Authenticity

Post by chewybrian »

One more... Sarte uses the example of a waiter and a customer. People often treat others almost as objects rather than subjects. They might take up the roles in which they find themselves, acting differently toward each other in that situation than they might if they met under different circumstances. By becoming the waiter and the customer rather than Joe and Eileen, they both lose a bit of themselves. They are not really acting as their true selves during this interaction. If the customer is rude, for example, the waiter might pretend they are not rude because he wants a tip, or not to be fired.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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