You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

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popeye1945
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You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

Perception is reaction, is experience, is identity, stored perceptions, experiences, and identity are memory. You are a vehicle of life, but even an old car has a built-in cigarette lighter, what a truly wretched vehicle you are!! :) " Those who know the most, must mourn the deepest, orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Byron, I think!
popeye1945
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

PS: They would let me post unless it was more than one sentence--LOL!!
Tegularius
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by Tegularius »

But what followed the creation
of the lesser angel man?
No tragedy before or after
only a farce that long began.

When screw-ups follow screwing
which seems to be the case
shouldn't we stop what we are doing
to save the human race? Ha! Ha!

Definitely not by Byron!! :lol:
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
popeye1945
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

Tegularius,
I take it you find nothing to disagree with, do you believe that perception is reaction thus experience is a reaction and that consciousness is itself reaction? Do you believe that apparent reality is reaction, a biological readout so to speak, come you must disagree with something, that is what makes it interesting.
Tegularius
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by Tegularius »

popeye1945 wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 1:00 am Tegularius,
I take it you find nothing to disagree with, do you believe that perception is reaction thus experience is a reaction and that consciousness is itself reaction? Do you believe that apparent reality is reaction, a biological readout so to speak, come you must disagree with something, that is what makes it interesting.
I was responding to Byron's quote. For humans - the kind that think about such things - the tree of life (nice phrase) is very much blended to the tree of knowledge since it's knowledge which gives life its perspective.

As for what you wrote, I can't respond in any meaningful manner - not that any of it would be meaningful anyway. The word reaction is, for me at least, kind of weird based on its context. There's something not right about it...but maybe that's just me.

In brief, I got nothing further to add.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
popeye1945
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

Hi Tegularius,
I think what Byron had in mind was, direct experience of the world is the holy grail, one can spend to much of one's life studying and pondering instead of being engaged. As to the concept of reaction versus human action, it is quite natural to feel it strange, it violates commonsense for most people.
Tegularius
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by Tegularius »

Byron...
“Sorrow is knowledge: they who know the most must mourn the deepest o’er the fatal truth, the Tree of Knowledge is not that of Life.”
The age of Byron and Goethe was one of Weltschmerz, or world weariness. The German word has a deeper meaning; there's no real counterpart to it in English.

The direct experience you mention was one of pervading melancholy, for which Byron became something of a symbol. It permeated the period known as Romanticism.

...a couple of famous painting symbolizing the melancholic mood...

Image

Image
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
popeye1945
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

I am enlightened, desolation row. I didn't take Byron's poem to be all that negative quite the opposite really. It was a period of great gloom however was it? Thanks for the insights!
Tegularius
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by Tegularius »

popeye1945 wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 3:18 pm I am enlightened, desolation row. I didn't take Byron's poem to be all that negative quite the opposite really. It was a period of great gloom however was it? Thanks for the insights!
Gloom is not the same as melancholy.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
popeye1945
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

What is the distinction, is melancholy closer to the actual human condition?
Nick_A
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by Nick_A »

popeye1945 wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 8:13 pm Perception is reaction, is experience, is identity, stored perceptions, experiences, and identity are memory. You are a vehicle of life, but even an old car has a built-in cigarette lighter, what a truly wretched vehicle you are!! :) " Those who know the most, must mourn the deepest, orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Byron, I think!
From "Sailing to Byzantium" by William Butler Yates

O sages standing in God's holy fire
As in the gold mosaic of a wall,
Come from the holy fire, perne in a gyre,
And be the singing-masters of my soul.
Consume my heart away; sick with desire
And fastened to a dying animal
It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity.


What is the soul and why is it fastened to a dying animal; this reacting creature of perception? Why does "It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity"? Is there a purpose in all this humanity as a whole is unaware of?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Tegularius
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by Tegularius »

popeye1945 wrote: July 23rd, 2021, 7:58 pm What is the distinction, is melancholy closer to the actual human condition?
The words gloom and melancholy are often used synonymously. Connotationally, however, they don't completely overlap.

Melancholy is more of an introspective nature; it operates mostly as an adjective and applied accordingly being mostly subjective and internalized.

Gloom, while having some relation to melancholy, is used mostly as a noun denoting an impression of something external.

Whether writing or verbalizing, one knows instinctively whether one or the other is appropriate or if sadness is more descriptive.

So, no! Melancholy is not closer to the actual human condition as it now shows itself. For that another more apt word is used called desperation.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Tegularius
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Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by Tegularius »

Nick_A wrote: July 24th, 2021, 8:41 am
popeye1945 wrote: July 22nd, 2021, 8:13 pm Perception is reaction, is experience, is identity, stored perceptions, experiences, and identity are memory. You are a vehicle of life, but even an old car has a built-in cigarette lighter, what a truly wretched vehicle you are!! :) " Those who know the most, must mourn the deepest, orr the fatal truth, the tree of knowledge is not that of life." Byron, I think!
From "Sailing to Byzantium" by William Butler Yates

O sages standing in God's holy fire
As in the gold mosaic of a wall,
Come from the holy fire, perne in a gyre,
And be the singing-masters of my soul.
Consume my heart away; sick with desire
And fastened to a dying animal
It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity.


What is the soul and why is it fastened to a dying animal; this reacting creature of perception? Why does "It knows not what it is; and gather me
Into the artifice of eternity"? Is there a purpose in all this humanity as a whole is unaware of?
Absolutely! In poetry anything is possible being just another fictional form of writing. It strives for sentiment and concludes in sentiment which is usually of little or no value in actuality or practice.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Papus79
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by Papus79 »

Sounds a bit like Sam Harris's proposal of determinism? If so I'm on board, although it has to be complex enough to account for what appears to be the capacity to not dutifully follow narratives and have moral agency deeper than following whatever archetypal narrative, story, of path direction laid out by one's surroundings (or anyone trying to gas-light you into it) if it's a crappy archetype or a crappy path.

it's a bit like we can't not learn, much like deeper aspects of who we are which function below our conscious radar and sometimes smack us in dreams with one message or another but most of the time don't concoct the content of dreams for our conscious awareness (hence we tend to forget them quickly otherwise). I think that's where people fight determinism - they assume it goes in tandem with superficial 'what you see is what you get' level of depth or complexity in dealing with consciousness, which I don't think follows from either the premise or experience.
Humbly watching Youtube in Universe 25. - Me
popeye1945
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

Papus,
Did not realize Sammy's influence was showing through. As to moral agency that would remain pretty much determined by the intellect of the said subject. Sam Harris does not indicate that a subject reacts rather than acts. If there is no such thing as free will and I believe this is true, he does indicate this biology-based morality for he focuses upon its well being to determine the direction to go. If you think about it, the belief in free will is a simplistic means of judgement and condemnation. To my way of thinking the realization of the lack of free will allows for concerns for context present and history of both context and subject, and it alines with being of the earth and not just thrown into it. The lack of depth and complexity is just that free will belief. What you see is what you get is the belief in free will. Never the less it is something to ponder this new approach and the waters are yet a little muddy for myself at least.
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