You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

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Papus79
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by Papus79 »

popeye1945 wrote: July 31st, 2021, 1:06 am If you think about it, the belief in free will is a simplistic means of judgement and condemnation.
That's what comes up when Sam or Robert Sapolsky talk about the impacts that this should in theory have on the criminal justice system. You also have what Gabor Mate and Johan Hari would say about addiction and socio-economic structures (it's what often can happen, for example, when someone has been eating too much of what's been - to other people - free externalities and it shows no sign of stopping).[/quote]
popeye1945 wrote: July 31st, 2021, 1:06 amTo my way of thinking the realization of the lack of free will allows for concerns for context present and history of both context and subject, and it alines with being of the earth and not just thrown into it.
Someone else here had the tidy phrase 'sufficient causation', full accounting of causes seems to generate results.

I think where people do get this confused and make a mess is assume that human beings are super-shallow automata, that their environments will make them whatever one might expect to be the path of least resistance, etc., when really we're almost - proportionally speaking - like black holes of integrated information and it's part of why suffering might make some people saints and other people worse than they already were, or people could assume that someone would become a serial killer based on having certain persistent things happen to them - I just hope we avoid, as a culture, taking the sloppy/lazy 'Shoot him - if he isn't evil yet he will be by the time we're done with him' approach.[/quote]
popeye1945 wrote: July 31st, 2021, 1:06 amThe lack of depth and complexity is just that free will belief. What you see is what you get is the belief in free will. Never the less it is something to ponder this new approach and the waters are yet a little muddy for myself at least.
Yeah, that's the abuse of the concept.

I do worry that we'd weaponize determinism against people (mentioned at the end of my last paragraph above) just as much as we weaponize free will, ie. we're apes, we like to win zero-sum games, and we like smashing 'others', so any cudgel we can use to oppress, dominate, etc. someone whose not like us will do. The trick is just making sure we have real adults mediating the dialog - without that we'll just be giving the Darwinian witch-burning /Girardian scapegoating mobs a different justification to destroy whoever they wanted to destroy anyway.
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popeye1945
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

"That's what comes up when Sam or Robert Sapolsky talk about the impacts that this should in theory have on the criminal justice system. You also have what Gabor Mate and Johan Hari would say about addiction and socio-economic structures (it's what often can happen, for example, when someone has been eating too much of what's been - to other people - free externalities and it shows no sign of stopping).[/quote]

The churches in the sin business is going to be shut down at last, it just may be an omen of further maturity, emotional and intellectual for humanity at large.


"Someone else here had the tidy phrase 'sufficient causation', full accounting of causes seems to generate results. quote

Surely full accounting of causes is quite impossible but a long history of abuse and depravation should add something to the bare idea the free will and judgement thereof.



"I think where people do get this confused and make a mess is assume that human beings are super-shallow automata, that their environments will make them whatever one might expect to be the path of least resistance, etc., when really we're almost - proportionally speaking - like black holes of integrated information and it's part of why suffering might make some people saints and other people worse than they already were, or people could assume that someone would become a serial killer based on having certain persistent things happen to them - I just hope we avoid, as a culture, taking the sloppy/lazy 'Shoot him - if he isn't evil yet he will be by the time we're done with him' approach.[/quote]

I quite agree, there are dangers here, one cannot count on greater maturity of judgement then has appeared under the delusion of free will.



I do worry that we'd weaponize determinism against people (mentioned at the end of my last paragraph above) just as much as we weaponize free will, ie. we're apes, we like to win zero-sum games, and we like smashing 'others', so any cudgel we can use to oppress, dominate, etc. someone whose not like us will do. The trick is just making sure we have real adults mediating the dialog - without that we'll just be giving the Darwinian witch-burning /Girardian scapegoating mobs a different justification to destroy whoever they wanted to destroy anyway.
[/quote]
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OneGeist
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by OneGeist »

To me it is obvious free will is an illusion. It is impossible for free will to exist in random chaos or designed order. All action is merely reaction. It is hard for most to grasp, but I like to refer to the fish bowl theory. Our perception is so limited we can not begin to understand the layers of cause and affect that has brought us to this point. How many millions of reactions are taking place all around us that are outside the reality of our senses. Although we know they are through science and technology. There has to be a multitude more that we are still unaware of.

As far as what affect this should have on the justice system, in my opinion very little. While I do believe our justice system needs an overhaul. Our entire system really. I am not a proponent of the M'Naghten rule or insanity defense. To me we are not punishing the person so much as the act. I can forgive even the worst tyrants in history, even feel sorry for them. Yet I don't believe we can allow them to exist on this plane if their existence causes harm and suffering to others. Regardless of their intention. I bought a beautiful antique lamp once. Gilded bronze sculpture at the base, I loved that lamp. My wife kept smelling something warm, until she noticed where the wire met the base it was getting so hot it was starting to singe the rug. It was not the fault of this beautiful lamp that I loved so much. However I couldn't allow it to remain in the center of my house. Knowing it had the capability of hurting my family. I feel the same way about people. Regardless of intent, we can not allow anyone to cause pain and harm against citizens who in theory are contributing positively to our society.
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by LuckyR »

OneGeist wrote: September 24th, 2021, 6:39 am To me it is obvious free will is an illusion. It is impossible for free will to exist in random chaos or designed order. All action is merely reaction. It is hard for most to grasp, but I like to refer to the fish bowl theory. Our perception is so limited we can not begin to understand the layers of cause and affect that has brought us to this point. How many millions of reactions are taking place all around us that are outside the reality of our senses. Although we know they are through science and technology. There has to be a multitude more that we are still unaware of.

As far as what affect this should have on the justice system, in my opinion very little. While I do believe our justice system needs an overhaul. Our entire system really. I am not a proponent of the M'Naghten rule or insanity defense. To me we are not punishing the person so much as the act. I can forgive even the worst tyrants in history, even feel sorry for them. Yet I don't believe we can allow them to exist on this plane if their existence causes harm and suffering to others. Regardless of their intention. I bought a beautiful antique lamp once. Gilded bronze sculpture at the base, I loved that lamp. My wife kept smelling something warm, until she noticed where the wire met the base it was getting so hot it was starting to singe the rug. It was not the fault of this beautiful lamp that I loved so much. However I couldn't allow it to remain in the center of my house. Knowing it had the capability of hurting my family. I feel the same way about people. Regardless of intent, we can not allow anyone to cause pain and harm against citizens who in theory are contributing positively to our society.
Before free will can exist or not exist, there should be an agreed upon definition of what it is. As you might guess there have been no shortage of discussions on this and related topics here, and I have read numerous similar and not so similar thoughts on definitions.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by OneGeist »

LuckyR wrote: September 25th, 2021, 1:27 am Before free will can exist or not exist, there should be an agreed upon definition of what it is. As you might guess there have been no shortage of discussions on this and related topics here, and I have read numerous similar and not so similar thoughts on definitions.
I find that is the biggest issue we have in communicating and understanding each other across a multitude of issues. Different interpretations and understandings of ideas and topics are a real issue. Two people standing next to each other can hear the same story, but picture completely different manifestations in there head bringing them to opposite conclusions.

So I should just skip my Schrödinger equation and Schopenhauer theory speech then?. The latter bothers me less as I am a fan of Hegelian idealism. Yet I find ideas I agree with and disagree with in most all theories. I am one of those who could argue either side of most topics. My wife will often get on to me after a heated civil discussion with a friend at a party or something. About how I don't even agree with the side I was arguing. It helps me get a perspective on opposing ideas. I also have a strong attraction to the idea of polarities. Whatever is true the exact opposite also has to be true. Without that contrast there would be no relevance and neither could exist.

Quantum entanglement is also a good argument to free will. They are finding entire galaxies millions of light years apart entangled with each other. How could two entities that far apart be entangled and both have free will. You can obviously see what side I lean towards. However I know my perception of things is a very narrow one when considering all that is. So I would not presume to know anything for certain.
"If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged". Noam Chomsky
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

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The fact that there is no such thing as independent existence actually is a good argument for the lack of free will. The idea of the thread that there is no such thing as human action, there is but human reaction. All organisms are reactionary creatures, the fact that one must be motivated within in order to move without spells reaction, not action. Reaction is the basis of the function of life, if it were not, evolutionary adaptation itself would not be feasible. If people made straight out willful unmotivated actions/behaviors what chance in the world would there be of understanding that behavior, unmotivated behaviors simply do not make sense and understanding another would be quite impossible. The immune system which protects us from invasive biological and chemical destruction is a reactionary system. Even the creations of humanity as biological extension of itself are reactionary systems. Being reactionary is how we function as part of something larger than ourselves and our reactions to the physical world become in the physical world causes for the ever-changing world. Free will is a false simplification, and inhabits the intellect falsifying the very nature of being and being in the world. No, all organisms are reactionary creatures, free will was part of a simpler world a more ignorant world. I would challenge anyone to give me just on example of human action I could not term reaction, there is no such creature.
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by avaregidor »

Byron's quote implies that Manfred, like Adam and Eve, has gained knowledge at the cost of happiness and peace. He has learned too much about himself and the world, and he cannot bear the burden of his guilt and despair. He also feels that he has lost his connection to life and nature, and he seeks to end his suffering by death or magic.
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

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popeye1945 wrote: August 17th, 2023, 7:40 pm The fact that there is no such thing as independent existence actually is a good argument for the lack of free will. The idea of the thread that there is no such thing as human action, there is but human reaction. All organisms are reactionary creatures, the fact that one must be motivated within in order to move without spells reaction, not action. Reaction is the basis of the function of life, if it were not, evolutionary adaptation itself would not be feasible. If people made straight out willful unmotivated actions/behaviors what chance in the world would there be of understanding that behavior, unmotivated behaviors simply do not make sense and understanding another would be quite impossible. The immune system which protects us from invasive biological and chemical destruction is a reactionary system. Even the creations of humanity as biological extension of itself are reactionary systems. Being reactionary is how we function as part of something larger than ourselves and our reactions to the physical world become in the physical world causes for the ever-changing world. Free will is a false simplification, and inhabits the intellect falsifying the very nature of being and being in the world. No, all organisms are reactionary creatures, free will was part of a simpler world a more ignorant world. I would challenge anyone to give me just on example of human action I could not term reaction, there is no such creature.
Huh? The difference between "reaction" and "action which takes into account sensory input" is semantic (at best).
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

LuckyR wrote: August 20th, 2023, 1:40 pm
popeye1945 wrote: August 17th, 2023, 7:40 pm The fact that there is no such thing as independent existence actually is a good argument for the lack of free will. The idea of the thread that there is no such thing as human action, there is but human reaction. All organisms are reactionary creatures, the fact that one must be motivated within in order to move without spells reaction, not action. Reaction is the basis of the function of life, if it were not, evolutionary adaptation itself would not be feasible. If people made straight out willful unmotivated actions/behaviors what chance in the world would there be of understanding that behavior, unmotivated behaviors simply do not make sense and understanding another would be quite impossible. The immune system which protects us from invasive biological and chemical destruction is a reactionary system. Even the creations of humanity as biological extension of itself are reactionary systems. Being reactionary is how we function as part of something larger than ourselves and our reactions to the physical world become in the physical world causes for the ever-changing world. Free will is a false simplification, and inhabits the intellect falsifying the very nature of being and being in the world. No, all organisms are reactionary creatures, free will was part of a simpler world a more ignorant world. I would challenge anyone to give me just on example of human action I could not term reaction, there is no such creature.
Huh? The difference between "reaction" and "action which takes into account sensory input" is semantic (at best).
No, it's not, and it gives people a false sense of what it is to be in the world, all organisms are reactionary creatures. meaning they respond to the psychical world as cause. The term action tends to infer an unmotivated response when there is no such thing. Many people do not feel the connection to being part of the world, as a functioning aspect, where reaction is belonging, people are not dropped into these world but are the world.
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

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popeye1945 wrote: August 17th, 2023, 7:40 pm The fact that there is no such thing as independent existence actually is a good argument for the lack of free will. The idea of the thread that there is no such thing as human action, there is but human reaction. All organisms are reactionary creatures, the fact that one must be motivated within in order to move without spells reaction, not action. Reaction is the basis of the function of life, if it were not, evolutionary adaptation itself would not be feasible. If people made straight out willful unmotivated actions/behaviors what chance in the world would there be of understanding that behavior, unmotivated behaviors simply do not make sense and understanding another would be quite impossible. The immune system which protects us from invasive biological and chemical destruction is a reactionary system. Even the creations of humanity as biological extension of itself are reactionary systems. Being reactionary is how we function as part of something larger than ourselves and our reactions to the physical world become in the physical world causes for the ever-changing world. Free will is a false simplification, and inhabits the intellect falsifying the very nature of being and being in the world. No, all organisms are reactionary creatures, free will was part of a simpler world a more ignorant world. I would challenge anyone to give me just on example of human action I could not term reaction, there is no such creature.
I'd agree in the sense that we're here to get as much benefit for energy spent. John Vervaeke talks about a concept often called 'combinatorial explosion', which means most directions will leave you worse off or even dead while very few will put you in a better position and the responsibility of your survival is charged with making the best economic choices you can (albeit strange things can happen to people's choices when consequences disappear as well as people can have various mental / neurological health issues that skew their internal economy).

I think any idea of libertarian free will (the true 'I could have done otherwise) is dead on arrival on the basis of how points in time and information states tie together - ie. to have made a different choice you'd need different internal states and different information which, at an exact point with the same exact internal and external states, there's no ballast and no background inertia to cause something different to happen. If superdeterminism is literally true it means that every micromotion that anything or anyone ever does was written at the big bang. In that case you could replay the same five minutes of a person's life over and over again and it would be an absolutely perfect copy every time. If it's Brian Greene's claim of quantum randomness then those five minutes would always unfold lawfully overall but never from the same starting point.

It's gotten to where if I hear a relatively intelligent person talk about 'free will' I just assume they mean it in a compatibalist sense of attending to agency and what's inside a person or what drives them - whether or not they actually chose what drives them to begin with.
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

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John Vervaeke talks about a concept often called 'combinatorial explosion', which means most directions will leave you worse off or even dead while very few will put you in a better position and the responsibility of your survival is charged with making the best economic choices you can
Something I should clarify - 'combinatorial explosion' itself is a concept related the idea that the number of moves you could make, or choices, is nearly infinite and incalculable. This is part of why problem spaces, as we attend to them, need inroads and means by which they can be approached in an organized fashion. When an area doesn't have immediate or obvious ROI it's very difficult - and even dangerous (losing the gene race) - to attend to.
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

Papus79 wrote: August 21st, 2023, 7:54 am
popeye1945 wrote: August 17th, 2023, 7:40 pm The fact that there is no such thing as independent existence actually is a good argument for the lack of free will. The idea of the thread that there is no such thing as human action, there is but human reaction. All organisms are reactionary creatures, the fact that one must be motivated within in order to move without spells reaction, not action. Reaction is the basis of the function of life, if it were not, evolutionary adaptation itself would not be feasible. If people made straight out willful unmotivated actions/behaviors what chance in the world would there be of understanding that behavior, unmotivated behaviors simply do not make sense and understanding another would be quite impossible. The immune system which protects us from invasive biological and chemical destruction is a reactionary system. Even the creations of humanity as biological extension of itself are reactionary systems. Being reactionary is how we function as part of something larger than ourselves and our reactions to the physical world become in the physical world causes for the ever-changing world. Free will is a false simplification, and inhabits the intellect falsifying the very nature of being and being in the world. No, all organisms are reactionary creatures, free will was part of a simpler world a more ignorant world. I would challenge anyone to give me just one example of human action I could not term reaction, there is no such creature.
\
I'd agree in the sense that we're here to get as much benefit for energy spent. John Vervaeke talks about a concept often called 'combinatorial explosion', which means most directions will leave you worse off or even dead while very few will put you in a better position and the responsibility of your survival is charged with making the best economic choices you can (albeit strange things can happen to people's choices when consequences disappear as well as people can have various mental / neurological health issues that skew their internal economy).

I think any idea of libertarian free will (the true 'I could have done otherwise) is dead on arrival on the basis of how points in time and information states tie together - ie. to have made a different choice you'd need different internal states and different information which, at an exact point with the same exact internal and external states, there's no ballast and no background inertia to cause something different to happen. If Super determinism is literally true it means that every micromotion that anything or anyone ever does was written at the big bang. In that case you could replay the same five minutes of a person's life over and over again and it would be an absolutely perfect copy every time. If it's Brian Greene's claim of quantum randomness then those five minutes would always unfold lawfully overall but never from the same starting point.

It's gotten to where if I hear a relatively intelligent person talk about 'free will' I just assume they mean it in a compatibilist sense of attending to agency and what's inside a person or what drives them - whether or not they actually chose what drives them to begin with.
Yes, in the swirling cosmos the illusion of free will/human action, is all-powerful it seems, like so many other experiences personal experience trumps authority, or trumps the experience of others.
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Re: You Are Reaction, A Function Of The World

Post by popeye1945 »

OneGeist wrote: September 24th, 2021, 6:39 am To me it is obvious free will is an illusion. It is impossible for free will to exist in random chaos or designed order. All action is merely reaction. It is hard for most to grasp, but I like to refer to the fish bowl theory. Our perception is so limited we cannot begin to understand the layers of cause and effect that has brought us to this point. How many millions of reactions are taking place all around us that are outside the reality of our senses. Although we know they are through science and technology. There has to be a multitude more that we are still unaware of.

As far as what effect this should have on the justice system, in my opinion very little. While I do believe our justice system needs an overhaul. Our entire system really. I am not a proponent of the M'Naghten rule or insanity defense. To me we are not punishing the person so much as the act. I can forgive even the worst tyrants in history, even feel sorry for them. Yet I don't believe we can allow them to exist on this plane if their existence causes harm and suffering to others. Regardless of their intention. I bought a beautiful antique lamp once. Gilded bronze sculpture at the base, I loved that lamp. My wife kept smelling something warm, until she noticed where the wire met the base it was getting so hot it was starting to singe the rug. It was not the fault of this beautiful lamp that I loved so much. However, I couldn't allow it to remain in the center of my house. Knowing it had the capability of hurting my family. I feel the same way about people. Regardless of intent, we cannot allow anyone to cause pain and harm to citizens who in theory are contributing positively to our society.
Nice to read something I am so fully in agreement with, delightful!
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