To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

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RJG
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To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by RJG »

To mask or not to mask. Here is my opinion on this topic:

***** Please take OFF your mask to save grandma! *****

[This message is intended for our 'healthy vaccinated' people. If you are vaccinated but have an underlying condition (susceptible to the ill effects of covid), then this message is NOT for you.]

Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- The virus (viral particles) dies, and is permanently removed from the environment, thereby making the environment less virally contaminated and safer for vulnerable people.
C. -- This is a GOOD thing. Cleaning up (removing) the virus from the environment helps save the lives of those people that are too vulnerable to get vaccinated.

Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters a 'masked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- Nothing. The virus (viral particles) continues on its way, keeping the environment virally contaminated, thereby increasing the likelihood of "killing grandma", and prolonging and perpetuating this pandemic.

**********
Be rational. Don't adhere to the irrational game of "let the rare exceptions dictate the general rule". This only results in more harm than good.

Demanding that lifeguards no longer jump into the pool to save an infant who fell in the deep end for fear that the lifeguards themselves might drown (or accidentally drown the infant) is highly irrational, and results in more harm than good.

Demanding that ambulance drivers no longer respond to the home or scene of an accident for fear of getting in an accident themselves (or accidentally killing someone) is highly irrational, and results in more harm than good.

Demanding that healthy vaccinated people put on masks for fear of dying themselves (or killing someone else) is highly irrational, and results in more harm than good.

***********
What say you?
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Consul
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Consul »

RJG wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 7:18 am
Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters a 'masked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- Nothing. The virus (viral particles) continues on its way, keeping the environment virally contaminated, thereby increasing the likelihood of "killing grandma", and prolonging and perpetuating this pandemic.
You're wrong: Viruses get stuck in (high-quality) medical masks, because there is an electrostatically charged layer that attracts virus-containing droplets:

"We may philosophize well or ill, but we must philosophize." – Wilfrid Sellars
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RJG
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote: Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters a 'masked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- Nothing. The virus (viral particles) continues on its way, keeping the environment virally contaminated, thereby increasing the likelihood of "killing grandma", and prolonging and perpetuating this pandemic.
Consul wrote:You're wrong: Viruses get stuck in (high-quality) medical masks, because there is an electrostatically charged layer that attracts virus-containing droplets:
This is irrelevant to my question/answer. -- This particular (non-common) mask only filters the 'outgoing' viral particles coming from the breath/sneeze of the person wearing the mask. This has nothing to do with the viral particles that may have collected on the external surfaces of the mask from the environment.

I guarantee you that when this person exhales/sneezes in his mask, hundreds, if not thousands of these externally attached particles are emitted/shedded back into the environment. I work with particles every day (via particle counting of UHP materials within the semiconductor industry). And also once someone touches or removes their mask (even this type of filtering mask!), tons more particles are emitted back into the environment (including those particles that may have been trapped on the interior surfaces).

Healthy vaccinated people who do NOT wear masks REMOVE viral contamination from the environment. ...this is GOOD.
Healthy vaccinated people who do wear masks DO NOT REMOVE viral contamination from the environment. ...this is BAD.
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Nick_A »

RJG
Be rational. Don't adhere to the irrational game of "let the rare exceptions dictate the general rule". This only results in more harm than good.

Demanding that lifeguards no longer jump into the pool to save an infant who fell in the deep end for fear that the lifeguards themselves might drown (or accidentally drown the infant) is highly irrational, and results in more harm than good.

Demanding that ambulance drivers no longer respond to the home or scene of an accident for fear of getting in an accident themselves (or accidentally killing someone) is highly irrational, and results in more harm than good.

Demanding that healthy vaccinated people put on masks for fear of dying themselves (or killing someone else) is highly irrational, and results in more harm than good.
These mask requirements are pure politics. Do you think if there was any sense in it, the government would invite millions of maskless illegal aliens into the country to spread a deadly virus? Of course not. Who can be so callous. Doing so would be treason. The fact that it is not and the practice is openly accepted just proves the government wants the people to get used to being controlled
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Sculptor1
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Let's look at the facts....

1) Deaths from COVID 19 so far = 4,244,511

2) Long Term illness through Long COVID, as yet no figure is available but there are 2 million in the UK alone, which is one third of total cases. Since the total number of cases worldwide is 180 million, we might expect there to be 60 million long terms problems ATM.
So far 60 million.

3) Deaths and long term Illness from mask wearing = ZERO.

It's tricky but looking at the balance of risk, who knows how to answer this question.
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RJG
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by RJG »

Nick_A wrote:These mask requirements are pure politics.
Bingo.


*********
Scuptor1 wrote:3) Deaths and long term Illness from mask wearing = ZERO.
I suspect that the majority of covid deaths could have been prevented if we did not mandate masks (and social distancing) of our healthy immune people (the young healthy; and those others with strong immune systems).

Preventing our healthy immune population from 'removing' the virus from our environment has led to the continued growth and mutation of this virus, resulting in many more deaths and long term illnesses.

We have let politicians and "bad science" (science that disregards logic) dictate our destruction.
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chewybrian
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by chewybrian »

RJG, you seem to think healthy people are like shop vacs, cleaning the air to protect the vulnerable people around them. Do you have any scientific basis for this idea? Can you link any evidence in a legitimate news story? If you think you are better qualified to judge the problem than the CDC, then you should be able to give us some hard evidence to back up your claim. Here is a fairly reliable, if fluffy, source of news, reporting the guidance from the CDC:

https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-releases-dat ... p_catchall
CDC also examined the viral load in 127 of the sick vaccinated people and found it was similar to the level seen in 84 unvaccinated people who contracted the variant. That suggests the vaccinated group was just as able to spread the virus as the unvaccinated group — a finding that prompted CDC to once again recommend that people in areas of high transmissions wear masks indoors regardless of vaccination status.
As I read this, they are recommending the vaccinated wear masks because they are capable of passing on the virus to vulnerable people, even if they are not at great risk of getting seriously ill themselves. The shop vac theory does not appear from any reputable source that I have seen; have you seen one?
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Nick_A
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Nick_A »

Chewybrian
CDC also examined the viral load in 127 of the sick vaccinated people and found it was similar to the level seen in 84 unvaccinated people who contracted the variant. That suggests the vaccinated group was just as able to spread the virus as the unvaccinated group — a finding that prompted CDC to once again recommend that people in areas of high transmissions wear masks indoors regardless of vaccination status.

As I read this, they are recommending the vaccinated wear masks because they are capable of passing on the virus to vulnerable people, even if they are not at great risk of getting seriously ill themselves. The shop vac theory does not appear from any reputable source that I have seen; have you seen one?
If this were true, the millions of illegal aliens invading the southern border and being invited to enter would be treason. Do you think the government is that callous to invite the deaths of innocent people through a maskless invasion? That would be treason. Is that what you believe?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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chewybrian
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by chewybrian »

Nick_A wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 1:41 pm Chewybrian
CDC also examined the viral load in 127 of the sick vaccinated people and found it was similar to the level seen in 84 unvaccinated people who contracted the variant. That suggests the vaccinated group was just as able to spread the virus as the unvaccinated group — a finding that prompted CDC to once again recommend that people in areas of high transmissions wear masks indoors regardless of vaccination status.

As I read this, they are recommending the vaccinated wear masks because they are capable of passing on the virus to vulnerable people, even if they are not at great risk of getting seriously ill themselves. The shop vac theory does not appear from any reputable source that I have seen; have you seen one?
If this were true, the millions of illegal aliens invading the southern border and being invited to enter would be treason. Do you think the government is that callous to invite the deaths of innocent people through a maskless invasion? That would be treason. Is that what you believe?
I believe that you have an unwarranted faith in my ability to interpret your sarcasm
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Pattern-chaser
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

RJG wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 7:18 am Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- The virus (viral particles) dies, and is permanently removed from the environment...
Our various vaccines are pretty effective (~95%) against the original variant, but only offer ~66% protection from infection by the delta variant. So, when the virus "encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person", it might well infect them. If they are young and fit, there is a good chance that they will show no symptoms, so they won't even know that they are able to infect Granny, who might well die as a result.

This topic is nothing less than dangerous misinformation.
Pattern-chaser

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Nick_A
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Nick_A »

Pattern-chaser wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 2:42 pm
RJG wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 7:18 am Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- The virus (viral particles) dies, and is permanently removed from the environment...
Our various vaccines are pretty effective (~95%) against the original variant, but only offer ~66% protection from infection by the delta variant. So, when the virus "encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person", it might well infect them. If they are young and fit, there is a good chance that they will show no symptoms, so they won't even know that they are able to infect Granny, who might well die as a result.

This topic is nothing less than dangerous misinformation.
Why are you so in favor of inviting unmasked illegal aliens to invade the country infecting granny? What did granny do to deserve contamination?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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RJG
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by RJG »

chewybrian wrote:RJG, you seem to think healthy people are like shop vacs, cleaning the air to protect the vulnerable people around them.
Yes, but I wouldn't say "shop vacs", I think "air filtration" may be a better phrase. So again:
Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person?

chewybrian wrote:Do you have any scientific basis for this idea? Can you link any evidence in a legitimate news story?
Chewy, you've got this backwards. You should be asking - Where is the evidence that supports/justifies masking healthy vaccinated people?

Why would you even do something if there is no reason/rationality to do so? ...do you like to be controlled and told what to do? ...if so, then I'll volunteer to boss you around! :)

Look, there is absolutely NO empirical evidence or scientific data that shows that healthy vaccinated 'unmasked' people generally spread the virus back into the environment. If you have that data, I would love to see it. I've only seen/heard about rare exceptions.

Forcing/demanding vaccinated people to wear masks without any RATIONAL justification is playing politics. If you want to control people, then at least have a good rational reason for doing so! ...but there is none!!!

chewybrian wrote:Here is a fairly reliable, if fluffy, source of news, reporting the guidance from the CDC:

https://news.yahoo.com/cdc-releases-dat ... p_catchall
CDC also examined the viral load in 127 of the sick vaccinated people and found it was similar to the level seen in 84 unvaccinated people who contracted the variant. That suggests the vaccinated group was just as able to spread the virus as the unvaccinated group — a finding that prompted CDC to once again recommend that people in areas of high transmissions wear masks indoors regardless of vaccination status.
This is irrelevant to this topic. It is missing the pertinent data! I have no doubt that vulnerable vaccinated people can get sick and spread the virus, but that is not the point of this topic.

chewybrian wrote:As I read this, they are recommending the vaccinated wear masks because they are capable of passing on the virus to vulnerable people, even if they are not at great risk of getting seriously ill themselves.
Yes, but the problem remains. They (CDC) don't distinguish between the two groups of people (the healthy vaccinated; those with strong immune systems and the vulnerable vaccinated; those with weak immune systems). They lump everyone together to come up with their irrationally based conclusion. Making a general rule like this can (and does!) cause more harm than good!

This is like (...actually much worse than!) lumping good swimmers with bad (or non) swimmers, and concluding that everyone should wear floaties when at the pool, because 127 people drowned. So WHO are these 127 people who drowned? ...were they mostly (if not all) non/bad swimmers? ...and likewise, WHO are these 127 sick vaccinated people? ...were they mostly (if not all) the non-healthy vaccinated people?


**************
RJG wrote: Q. -- What happens when the virus encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person?
A. -- The virus (viral particles) dies, and is permanently removed from the environment...
Pattern-chaser wrote:Our various vaccines are pretty effective (~95%) against the original variant, but only offer ~66% protection from infection by the delta variant. So, when the virus "encounters an 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated person", it might well infect them. If they are young and fit, there is a good chance that they will show no symptoms, so they won't even know that they are able to infect Granny, who might well die as a result.
Look, rationality tells us that to spread the virus back into the environment, we must first be infected, and then replication must occur (symptoms are typically a manifestation of replications). In general, those with weak immune systems replicate the virus, whereas those with strong immune systems do not (except minimally in rare cases/exceptions). In general, healthy vaccinated people do not spread the virus.

Again, if you have scientific data that contradicts this rationality, then I would love to see it. ...but there is none!

*********
Bottom-line: masking our healthy vaccinated population causes more harm than good. It allows the virus to continue to grow and mutate, continuing its killing.
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chewybrian
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by chewybrian »

RJG wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 3:31 pm Chewy, you've got this backwards. You should be asking - Where is the evidence that supports/justifies masking healthy vaccinated people?
I gave a source, even though my opinion matches the informed opinion being given to the public. If your opinion is valid, then it should be simple for you to link a source. The fact that you don't tells me you don't have a one.

If I want to make a claim that is off the beaten path, like "you should not brush your teeth!", then the burden is on me to show some evidence to support such a claim. You are the one off in the woods here, so the burden is on you to back up what you say.
RJG wrote: August 2nd, 2021, 3:31 pm there is absolutely NO empirical evidence or scientific data that shows that healthy vaccinated 'unmasked' people generally spread the virus back into the environment. If you have that data, I would love to see it.
"...the vaccinated group was just as able to spread the virus as the unvaccinated group"

^That was the conclusion from the CDC report. The implication is obvious, that wearing the mask is a good idea, if you care about others more than some bs Ayn Rand idea of freedom. Freedom will fail if people are too selfish or ignorant to do the right thing when it matters.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Sy Borg
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Sy Borg »

I see no reason to pretend to know better than scientists on this. That is just arrogance. If medicos suggest mask wearing, then it's probably safer to wear a mask. Obviously. Who do we believe? A person trained in the subject or some Ken or Karen type making claims online? Some believe the latter, mostly due to the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Surprised at how much drama queen carry-on there is about masks. It's as though they are some horrifying imposition rather than a basic public health measure during a pandemic. It's not as though people have to staple a mask to their faces.

Wearing a mask on a mild day is easy, except for a small minority of people with breathing difficulties. COVID has exposed those who are neurotics and naive fools who think that mask wearing is a political issue.

Masks are so easy that one can forget they are wearing them. Only the other day I tried to drink my coffee while wearing a mask. That, at least, is something I do not recommend.
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RJG
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by RJG »

RJG wrote:Where is the evidence that supports/justifies masking healthy vaccinated people?
chewybrian wrote:I gave a source, even though my opinion matches the informed opinion being given to the public.
What source??? The source you gave had nothing to do with healthy vaccinated people. You can't rationally draw any conclusion about healthy vaccinated people from that study/report. You're missing at least one premise statement.

P1. 127 vaccinated people got infected with covid.
P2. [Missing premise]
C1. Therefore we should demand that healthy vaccinated people be masked.

Chewy, please show your logic (in a simple clear syllogism) that justifies your belief. I would love to see it.

chewybrian wrote:If your opinion is valid, then it should be simple for you to link a source. The fact that you don't tells me you don't have a one.
My source and opinion are based on simple logic. Science that disregards logic is "BAD science".

Here is my logic:

P1. In general, 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated people remove more of the virus from the environment than they contribute back into the environment.
P2. Removing viral contamination from the environment makes it safer for vulnerable people.
C1. Therefore, 'unmasked' healthy vaccinated people make the environment safer for vulnerable people.

If you believe one of my premises is flawed, then you've got to prove it. The catch is that you've gotta use logic (...much like finding an error in math requires math to find it).

Currently, there is no scientific evidence or logic that makes my conclusion unsound.

RJG wrote:There is absolutely NO empirical evidence or scientific data that shows that healthy vaccinated 'unmasked' people generally spread the virus back into the environment. If you have that data, I would love to see it.
chewybrian wrote:"...the vaccinated group was just as able to spread the virus as the unvaccinated group"
?? What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? (...or about unmasked healthy vaccinated people making the environment less covid contaminated?).


********
Sy Borg wrote:I see no reason to pretend to know better than scientists on this.
Wouldn't you agree that -- science that disregards logic is bad science?

Being a good scientist does not necessarily make one a good logician.

Is there any sound science out there, that you know of, that logically justifies healthy vaccinated people should wear masks? ...I would love to see it.
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