To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Post Reply
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Ecurb »

chewybrian wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:40 pm
Don't these count as laws?

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax."
Yes, they are laws. They curtail the freedom of states, election observers, and sundry other yahoos from abridging the right to vote. If such parties attempt to demand a poll tax, the Feds can come in and arrest them, and throw them in prison, which clearly curtails their freedom. Why is this hard to understand?
User avatar
chewybrian
Posts: 1591
Joined: May 9th, 2018, 7:17 pm
Favorite Philosopher: Epictetus
Location: Florida man

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by chewybrian »

Ecurb wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:47 pm
chewybrian wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:40 pm
Don't these count as laws?

"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax."
Yes, they are laws. They curtail the freedom of states, election observers, and sundry other yahoos from abridging the right to vote. If such parties attempt to demand a poll tax, the Feds can come in and arrest them, and throw them in prison, which clearly curtails their freedom. Why is this hard to understand?
So, when the slaves were freed, all that happened was that peoples' right to own slaves were taken from them? I don't know why it would be hard to see what I am getting at.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I see freedom for me in that law. I am free to do what I am doing right now, for example. I suspect most people see it that way.

Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Tegularius
Posts: 711
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Tegularius »

Nick_A wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:43 pm
Tegularius wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:25 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 6:56 pm
Maybe Simone is right and "Nothing is more comfortable than not having to think." Frightening if true. Yet losing the ability to think would explain the acceptance of genocides for example
Actually, anyone with the ability to think, knows that genocides, as implemented by states, requires a lot of planning and thinking.
You are describing goal directed indoctrination, Impartial reason doesn't exclude but rather includes information. That is why impartial reason or common sense must be canceled in a slave state.
You can describe it by whatever weird reasoning you like but to implement a true slave state or a genocidal one requires a lot of planning and reasoning. Without those abilities such states would never be able to carry out their agendas.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Ecurb »

chewybrian wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 8:04 pm

So, when the slaves were freed, all that happened was that peoples' right to own slaves were taken from them? I don't know why it would be hard to see what I am getting at.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I see freedom for me in that law. I am free to do what I am doing right now, for example. I suspect most people see it that way.

Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
All laws restrict freedom. That's because they are enforced by the jails, billy clubs and pistols of the state's minions. Now, obviously (as the examples you give point out) laws may ALSO protect freedoms -- freedom from slavery, for example. Nonetheless, if you enslave someone, and beat him, and sell his children, you will be imprisoned (under this law) which obviously restricts your freedom. I make no comment on whether and when laws can conduce to greater overall freedom -- only that they specifically restrict freedoms and can do nothing else.

The ammendment you cite above resticts the freedom of the Government to establish a religion, for example. This is (I think) a good thing -- but it is also a restriction on freedom. That's all I meant.
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Ecurb »

Nick_A wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:43 pm

You are describing goal directed indoctrination, Impartial reason doesn't exclude but rather includes information. That is why impartial reason or common sense must be canceled in a slave state.
Reason is never "impartial". It is used in the service of lusts, prejudices, and (in your case, Nick) futile attempts at self-engrandizment. The light shining outside Pato's Cave is the mystical aura of delusion. All reason excludes some information and includes other information. How could it do otherwise?
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Nick_A »

Tegularius wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 9:25 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:43 pm
Tegularius wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:25 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 6:56 pm
Maybe Simone is right and "Nothing is more comfortable than not having to think." Frightening if true. Yet losing the ability to think would explain the acceptance of genocides for example
Actually, anyone with the ability to think, knows that genocides, as implemented by states, requires a lot of planning and thinking.
You are describing goal directed indoctrination, Impartial reason doesn't exclude but rather includes information. That is why impartial reason or common sense must be canceled in a slave state.
You can describe it by whatever weird reasoning you like but to implement a true slave state or a genocidal one requires a lot of planning and reasoning. Without those abilities such states would never be able to carry out their agendas.
No. People who blindly follow political goals or cult demands do not think. Thinking is done for them. They are told what to think. Do you see the difference between thinking and being told what to think?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Nick_A »

Ecurb wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 9:44 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:43 pm

You are describing goal directed indoctrination, Impartial reason doesn't exclude but rather includes information. That is why impartial reason or common sense must be canceled in a slave state.
Reason is never "impartial". It is used in the service of lusts, prejudices, and (in your case, Nick) futile attempts at self-engrandizment. The light shining outside Pato's Cave is the mystical aura of delusion. All reason excludes some information and includes other information. How could it do otherwise?
If self-engrandizment is acknowledging and valuing the freedom to attempt to think and feel as a human being rather than an indoctrinated atom of the Great Beast, then I am guilty
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Ecurb »

Nick_A wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 9:54 pm

No. People who blindly follow political goals or cult demands do not think. Thinking is done for them. They are told what to think. Do you see the difference between thinking and being told what to think?
Everyone thinks. If they don't think exactly like you, more power to them.
If self-engrandizment is acknowledging and valuing the freedom to attempt to think and feel as a human being rather than an indoctrinated atom of the Great Beast, then I am guilty
Feel free to think whatever silly thoughts you want to think, Nick. But don't ascribe to those with whom you disagree the calumny that they are "indoctrinated atom(s) of the Great Beast." When you do, you simply make yourself look like a doctrinaire bigot, who, had you the power, would reopen the Gulags.
Tegularius
Posts: 711
Joined: February 6th, 2021, 5:27 am

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Tegularius »

Nick_A wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 9:54 pm
Tegularius wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 9:25 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:43 pm
Tegularius wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:25 pm

Actually, anyone with the ability to think, knows that genocides, as implemented by states, requires a lot of planning and thinking.
You are describing goal directed indoctrination, Impartial reason doesn't exclude but rather includes information. That is why impartial reason or common sense must be canceled in a slave state.
You can describe it by whatever weird reasoning you like but to implement a true slave state or a genocidal one requires a lot of planning and reasoning. Without those abilities such states would never be able to carry out their agendas.
No. People who blindly follow political goals or cult demands do not think. Thinking is done for them. They are told what to think. Do you see the difference between thinking and being told what to think?
...you mean like being told what to think by your constant favorite gurus...Simone, Plato and Einstein whom you forever quote as gods of wisdom. What I think most likely is they would expect those who actually think and want to think to also think for themselves instead of being dictated to by what they think since there was never any certainty or proof in anyone's thinking.

But I can see what you're saying that following the usual precautions in a pandemic like mask wearing and social distancing could be a prelude to dictatorship, slavery and maybe even genocide.

To preserve the integrity of freedom perhaps we should allow corona and its nasty offspring variants complete privilege while we continue as normal...at least for as long as we're still standing. :twisted:
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
User avatar
Sy Borg
Site Admin
Posts: 14942
Joined: December 16th, 2013, 9:05 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Sy Borg »

Interestingly, those who have been vaccinated can still carry the Delta variant asymptomatically.

Logically, the unmasked unvaccinated will be disproportionately represented amongst COVID deaths and disabilities. The Darwin Awards people might have to create a group category to cater for the current zeitgeist.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Steve3007 »

chewybrian wrote:I see freedom for me in that law. I am free to do what I am doing right now, for example. I suspect most people see it that way.

Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
This raises the issue of what laws are for. By their nature, laws curtail freedom, but, as you've said, the best of them do so in order to enhance freedom. Your example of removing the freedom to own slaves is an obvious one.

Relating this to the subject of the topic: Where I live the legal requirement to wear a mask in various public places was lifted (approximately as planned) on 19th July. Some vulnerable people have made the point that this law was actually enhancing their own freedom to do things like riding on trains in relative safety, and that removing the law removes that freedom by surrounding them with unmasked coughing and sneezing people. Obviously one could argue about the physics (of masks and liquid droplets) and the biology (of viruses and vaccines) which determines whether their fears are actually justified, but the separate socio-political point they are making about the restriction of some freedoms in order to enhance others is a valid one, I think.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Steve3007 »

AverageBozo wrote:Any number of viral particles (cells) in a space large enough to accommodate an elderly woman and a young man would have to be a very large number, say, a googleplex.
I appreciate that you're exaggerating to make the point, but I think a googleplex is a tad OTT. I remember reading somewhere that the total number of elementary particles in the known universe is estimated to be about 1080. Quite a lot less than 10100, and way less than 1 with 10100 zeros after it. :D

(But I was intrigued to read that "lunatic" was autocorrected to "little native".)
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Steve3007 »

Typo: Googleplex should be Googolplex. A popular search engine changed the spelling.
Steve3007
Posts: 10339
Joined: June 15th, 2011, 5:53 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Steve3007 »

Tegularius wrote:But I can see what you're saying that following the usual precautions in a pandemic like mask wearing and social distancing could be a prelude to dictatorship, slavery and maybe even genocide.
I think the view of Nick's that you're ironically repeating here is interesting because contrasting attitudes to this pandemic seem to have highlighted some cultural differences between different societies. In the UK, there's a right-wing newspaper columnist called Peter Hitchens who has, throughout the pandemic, been using his column in the Daily Mail to make dire predictions that the anti-pandemic measures instigated by our Conservative government, under the leadership of the instinctively libertarian PM Boris Johnson, are a slippery slope to dictatorship and slavery. (Since that dictatorship hasn't yet materialized I don't know how he's going to spin that. He'll probably take the line that his warnings were what prevented it).

Obviously this is absurd and that extreme a view is very rare. But my impression is that in the US, though that extreme a view is still a minority, it's not as rare, because of the strong vein of opinion on the political right in the US which opposes, with violence if necessary, almost all central government action. Exemplified by the previous president who saw it as his role to actively undermine the actions of government in numerous ways, including encouraging, from the start, people to ignore any attempts to impose any restrictions on behaviour. (I'm thinking in particular of those "freedom for..." tweets near the beginning of the pandemic last year).

I think it's pandemics like this which highlight that particular type of political divide because of the way that they forcefully show us what we already knew: that we all breathe the same air and that the libertarian ideal of freely acting individuals, who can choose to be completely independent of others, is more complicated than some libertarians would have us believe. We are more interdependent, and more dependent on "commons" which no individual player in the market of life has an interest in unilaterally maintaining, than they would have us believe.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8232
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: August 4th, 2021, 2:21 am Interestingly, those who have been vaccinated can still carry the Delta variant asymptomatically.
I think those who have been vaccinated can still carry any COVID variant asymptomatically. But most vaccines offer ~97% protection against the original alpha variant, and only ~66% against the delta variant, so logically, the delta variant will be the most common infection among the vaccinated.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021