Yes, they are laws. They curtail the freedom of states, election observers, and sundry other yahoos from abridging the right to vote. If such parties attempt to demand a poll tax, the Feds can come in and arrest them, and throw them in prison, which clearly curtails their freedom. Why is this hard to understand?chewybrian wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 7:40 pm
Don't these count as laws?
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax."
To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
So, when the slaves were freed, all that happened was that peoples' right to own slaves were taken from them? I don't know why it would be hard to see what I am getting at.Ecurb wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 7:47 pmYes, they are laws. They curtail the freedom of states, election observers, and sundry other yahoos from abridging the right to vote. If such parties attempt to demand a poll tax, the Feds can come in and arrest them, and throw them in prison, which clearly curtails their freedom. Why is this hard to understand?chewybrian wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 7:40 pm
Don't these count as laws?
"The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax."
I see freedom for me in that law. I am free to do what I am doing right now, for example. I suspect most people see it that way.Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
You can describe it by whatever weird reasoning you like but to implement a true slave state or a genocidal one requires a lot of planning and reasoning. Without those abilities such states would never be able to carry out their agendas.Nick_A wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 7:43 pmYou are describing goal directed indoctrination, Impartial reason doesn't exclude but rather includes information. That is why impartial reason or common sense must be canceled in a slave state.Tegularius wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 7:25 pmActually, anyone with the ability to think, knows that genocides, as implemented by states, requires a lot of planning and thinking.
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
All laws restrict freedom. That's because they are enforced by the jails, billy clubs and pistols of the state's minions. Now, obviously (as the examples you give point out) laws may ALSO protect freedoms -- freedom from slavery, for example. Nonetheless, if you enslave someone, and beat him, and sell his children, you will be imprisoned (under this law) which obviously restricts your freedom. I make no comment on whether and when laws can conduce to greater overall freedom -- only that they specifically restrict freedoms and can do nothing else.chewybrian wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 8:04 pm
So, when the slaves were freed, all that happened was that peoples' right to own slaves were taken from them? I don't know why it would be hard to see what I am getting at.
I see freedom for me in that law. I am free to do what I am doing right now, for example. I suspect most people see it that way.Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
The ammendment you cite above resticts the freedom of the Government to establish a religion, for example. This is (I think) a good thing -- but it is also a restriction on freedom. That's all I meant.
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
Reason is never "impartial". It is used in the service of lusts, prejudices, and (in your case, Nick) futile attempts at self-engrandizment. The light shining outside Pato's Cave is the mystical aura of delusion. All reason excludes some information and includes other information. How could it do otherwise?
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
No. People who blindly follow political goals or cult demands do not think. Thinking is done for them. They are told what to think. Do you see the difference between thinking and being told what to think?Tegularius wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 9:25 pmYou can describe it by whatever weird reasoning you like but to implement a true slave state or a genocidal one requires a lot of planning and reasoning. Without those abilities such states would never be able to carry out their agendas.Nick_A wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 7:43 pmYou are describing goal directed indoctrination, Impartial reason doesn't exclude but rather includes information. That is why impartial reason or common sense must be canceled in a slave state.Tegularius wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 7:25 pmActually, anyone with the ability to think, knows that genocides, as implemented by states, requires a lot of planning and thinking.
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
If self-engrandizment is acknowledging and valuing the freedom to attempt to think and feel as a human being rather than an indoctrinated atom of the Great Beast, then I am guiltyEcurb wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 9:44 pmReason is never "impartial". It is used in the service of lusts, prejudices, and (in your case, Nick) futile attempts at self-engrandizment. The light shining outside Pato's Cave is the mystical aura of delusion. All reason excludes some information and includes other information. How could it do otherwise?
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
Everyone thinks. If they don't think exactly like you, more power to them.
Feel free to think whatever silly thoughts you want to think, Nick. But don't ascribe to those with whom you disagree the calumny that they are "indoctrinated atom(s) of the Great Beast." When you do, you simply make yourself look like a doctrinaire bigot, who, had you the power, would reopen the Gulags.If self-engrandizment is acknowledging and valuing the freedom to attempt to think and feel as a human being rather than an indoctrinated atom of the Great Beast, then I am guilty
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
...you mean like being told what to think by your constant favorite gurus...Simone, Plato and Einstein whom you forever quote as gods of wisdom. What I think most likely is they would expect those who actually think and want to think to also think for themselves instead of being dictated to by what they think since there was never any certainty or proof in anyone's thinking.Nick_A wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 9:54 pmNo. People who blindly follow political goals or cult demands do not think. Thinking is done for them. They are told what to think. Do you see the difference between thinking and being told what to think?Tegularius wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 9:25 pmYou can describe it by whatever weird reasoning you like but to implement a true slave state or a genocidal one requires a lot of planning and reasoning. Without those abilities such states would never be able to carry out their agendas.Nick_A wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 7:43 pmYou are describing goal directed indoctrination, Impartial reason doesn't exclude but rather includes information. That is why impartial reason or common sense must be canceled in a slave state.Tegularius wrote: ↑August 3rd, 2021, 7:25 pm
Actually, anyone with the ability to think, knows that genocides, as implemented by states, requires a lot of planning and thinking.
But I can see what you're saying that following the usual precautions in a pandemic like mask wearing and social distancing could be a prelude to dictatorship, slavery and maybe even genocide.
To preserve the integrity of freedom perhaps we should allow corona and its nasty offspring variants complete privilege while we continue as normal...at least for as long as we're still standing.
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
Logically, the unmasked unvaccinated will be disproportionately represented amongst COVID deaths and disabilities. The Darwin Awards people might have to create a group category to cater for the current zeitgeist.
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
This raises the issue of what laws are for. By their nature, laws curtail freedom, but, as you've said, the best of them do so in order to enhance freedom. Your example of removing the freedom to own slaves is an obvious one.chewybrian wrote:I see freedom for me in that law. I am free to do what I am doing right now, for example. I suspect most people see it that way.
Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
Relating this to the subject of the topic: Where I live the legal requirement to wear a mask in various public places was lifted (approximately as planned) on 19th July. Some vulnerable people have made the point that this law was actually enhancing their own freedom to do things like riding on trains in relative safety, and that removing the law removes that freedom by surrounding them with unmasked coughing and sneezing people. Obviously one could argue about the physics (of masks and liquid droplets) and the biology (of viruses and vaccines) which determines whether their fears are actually justified, but the separate socio-political point they are making about the restriction of some freedoms in order to enhance others is a valid one, I think.
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
I appreciate that you're exaggerating to make the point, but I think a googleplex is a tad OTT. I remember reading somewhere that the total number of elementary particles in the known universe is estimated to be about 1080. Quite a lot less than 10100, and way less than 1 with 10100 zeros after it.AverageBozo wrote:Any number of viral particles (cells) in a space large enough to accommodate an elderly woman and a young man would have to be a very large number, say, a googleplex.
(But I was intrigued to read that "lunatic" was autocorrected to "little native".)
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
I think the view of Nick's that you're ironically repeating here is interesting because contrasting attitudes to this pandemic seem to have highlighted some cultural differences between different societies. In the UK, there's a right-wing newspaper columnist called Peter Hitchens who has, throughout the pandemic, been using his column in the Daily Mail to make dire predictions that the anti-pandemic measures instigated by our Conservative government, under the leadership of the instinctively libertarian PM Boris Johnson, are a slippery slope to dictatorship and slavery. (Since that dictatorship hasn't yet materialized I don't know how he's going to spin that. He'll probably take the line that his warnings were what prevented it).Tegularius wrote:But I can see what you're saying that following the usual precautions in a pandemic like mask wearing and social distancing could be a prelude to dictatorship, slavery and maybe even genocide.
Obviously this is absurd and that extreme a view is very rare. But my impression is that in the US, though that extreme a view is still a minority, it's not as rare, because of the strong vein of opinion on the political right in the US which opposes, with violence if necessary, almost all central government action. Exemplified by the previous president who saw it as his role to actively undermine the actions of government in numerous ways, including encouraging, from the start, people to ignore any attempts to impose any restrictions on behaviour. (I'm thinking in particular of those "freedom for..." tweets near the beginning of the pandemic last year).
I think it's pandemics like this which highlight that particular type of political divide because of the way that they forcefully show us what we already knew: that we all breathe the same air and that the libertarian ideal of freely acting individuals, who can choose to be completely independent of others, is more complicated than some libertarians would have us believe. We are more interdependent, and more dependent on "commons" which no individual player in the market of life has an interest in unilaterally maintaining, than they would have us believe.
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?
I think those who have been vaccinated can still carry any COVID variant asymptomatically. But most vaccines offer ~97% protection against the original alpha variant, and only ~66% against the delta variant, so logically, the delta variant will be the most common infection among the vaccinated.
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