To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

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Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Nick_A »

Chewybrian
Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
What is the "alleged greater good?" Who decides if it is greater than the ideal of truth and justice? Which is more important for humanity; the natural impulse for freedom or the goal of the alleged greater good?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
Protagoras
Posts: 37
Joined: July 10th, 2021, 5:46 am

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Protagoras »

Sy Borg wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 6:50 pm
Protagoras wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 6:05 pm
Sy Borg wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 5:53 pm For Trumpian Americans, a failure to rebel against governments in all things is seen as weakness - unless The Don makes the policy, in which case they see obedience as a patriotic duty.

The obsession with masks today is, as Ecurb implies, extremely trivial-minded and naive. The irony is that we are being exploited by a toxic combination of governments and multinationals (especially Big Fossil Fuels, Big Mining, Big Weapons, Big Pharma and Big Sensationalist Media). Trumpian attack dogs are are key plank to help stoke up societal divisions. They are doing a fine job, with help from Russian and Chinese trolls.

Thanks to Trumpian reactionaries, the little people are distracted by constant fights about trivialities like masks, gender and sexuality. This clears the way for their exploiters to decouple from the tax system without anyone much noticing, leaving the burden to those who can't afford it.
Yes,but does ecurb admit the toxicity of govt and big business?
Why do people not think academia, science and epidemiologists are also not exploiting people?
I expect that he figures that the toxicity of Big Media, Big Resources, Big Banking, Big Weapons and and Big Government are already well-known. While all institutions are tainted, the ones you list are amongst the most trustworthy. Not entirely so, sure, but generally more honest.

You can tell by the pay grades. The money involved, the more a field will be tainted, eg. real estate, cars. There's no money in being an academic or a scientist. A Principal Research Scientist with PhDs and decades of experience can earn less than young accountants and lawyers, and far less than young merchant bankers. Rule of thumb: the more beautiful and desirable an occupation, the more people who want to do it, and that drives payment down.

Meanwhile, the powers-that-be gain nothing from mask wearing. Quite the opposite, because it thwarts facial recognition technology. The smartest insurgents to assault the Capitol last year wore masks (as opposed to Viking helmets). Not long ago, it was illegal to walk into a bank with one's face covered, now it's law.

This is not due to sinister mechanisations - aside from the CCP allowing the Wuhan coronavirus to spread around the world while they were already shutting down their internal borders - but that's another story. No, mask wearing is simply about disease control. I'm hearing that vaccinated people can still be infectious with the Delta strain, even if the vaccine dampens their COVID symptoms. Interesting times.

Another issue that is rarely spoken about is administrative cost-cutting and regulative apathy. For instance, it's easier to force all dog owners to walk their dog on a leash, even if their dog is old, lazy, socialised, well-trained and has all the aggression and prey drive of a soap bubble.

It's easier to outlaw drugs and let addicts destroy themselves than to register addicts and help them lead productive lives (and it provides tremendous income for private prison operators). Of course, the cost of the war on drugs to societies is incalculable. A massive, corrupt failure, supported by Big Alcohol and Clubs and Pubs alliances.

It's easier to demand that elderly people on the dole whom have become unemployable to apply for a certain number of jobs each week or risk loss of payment. Again, it's simpler to lump everyone into a single basket that to assess individual cases.

And it's easier to tell everyone to wear masks outdoors than to specify more targeted policies. Often, what is thought of as as sinister in government is actually more lazy and inconsiderate.
Why are you making a distinction between big pharma,government and science?
Who do you think directs and funds scientific research?
Protagoras
Posts: 37
Joined: July 10th, 2021, 5:46 am

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Protagoras »

Ecurb wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 7:05 pm
Protagoras wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 6:05 pm

Yes,but does ecurb admit the toxicity of govt and big business?
Why do people not think academia,science and epidemiologists are also not exploiting people?
Your use of double negatives is confusing, Prota. I believe you are trying to say something that is, in fact, the opposite of what you actually ARE saying. Academia would not approve of such shoddy writing skills.

I am neither a coward nor an infant. For example, I don't own any personal protection firearms, which is clearly a cowardly thing to do. Who is so lily-livered that they buy a gun to protect themselves? Where are the imaginary hostile forces? Are they in the maskless caravan of illegal aliens about which Nick keeps prattling.

What possible motive would academia or government have to promote (unnecessary) mask-wearing? Unless there is a potential motive, I don't buy the theory.

By the way, I certainly admit the "toxicity" (whatever that means -- fossil fuel use and global warming, perhaps?) of government and big business -- especially when Donald Trump was President.
Those that think government are there for the citizens best interests are infantile. And those who don't stand up for freedom because of fear porn are cowardly.
You admit the toxicity of govt yet defend their nonsense mandates?!
Protagoras
Posts: 37
Joined: July 10th, 2021, 5:46 am

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Protagoras »

Nick_A wrote: August 3rd, 2021, 6:56 pm Protagoras
You just don't get it do you.
Government exists to try to pimp you. And this masking is just nonsense,curtailing your freedom.
Tell me,what would the government have to do to get you to start criticising?
You almost make me want to begin a thread on the political mind. You understand it but who else does? Only a few doIt would be based on Simone Weil's observation:
"When a man joins a political party, he submissively adopts a mental attitude which he will express later on with words such as, ‘As a monarchist, as a Socialist, I think that …’ It is so comfortable! It amounts to having no thoughts at all. Nothing is more comfortable than not having to think." Simone Weil
Why is it that so many defend obvious hypocrisy? On one hand the supporters of a poltical decision allow illegal aliens contaminated with covid and maskless to invade the southern border free as a bird. On the other hand those unwilling or unable to take the vaccine are condemned. This is obvious hypocrisy but for some reason not seen by those with political interests. Allegiance to politics apparently blocks out logic.

Maybe Simone is right and "Nothing is more comfortable than not having to think." Frightening if true. Yet losing the ability to think would explain the acceptance of genocides for example

It's people who think tribally/politically that express their hypocrisy and oppressive logic whenever they are under pressure
or scared. Even those who consider themselves freethinkers fall for this tribal mentality.
But the good news is eventually they will grow out of it. Maybe the next Lifetime!
Ecurb
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Ecurb »

Nick_A wrote: August 4th, 2021, 10:08 am

What is the "alleged greater good?" Who decides if it is greater than the ideal of truth and justice? Which is more important for humanity; the natural impulse for freedom or the goal of the alleged greater good?
Elected officials decide what laws to enact, Nick. I'm surprised you don't know this. Where do you live that you remain so ignorant?

The natural impulse for freedom is fine. If only everyone was well-educated, kind, empathetic and reasonable we wouldn't need laws. We could live in an anarchy. Everyone would wear a mask voluntarily when doing so promoted the greater good. Unfortunately, many people are badly educated, unempathetic, and unreasonable. So we need laws.

The "ideal of truth and justice" often leads to gulags, Inquisitions and witch burnnings. This is especially true when the sword of truth and justice is wielded by know-it-all fanatics like Torquemada and NIck.
Ecurb
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Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Ecurb »

Protagoras wrote: August 4th, 2021, 10:44 am
Those that think government are there for the citizens best interests are infantile. And those who don't stand up for freedom because of fear porn are cowardly.
You admit the toxicity of govt yet defend their nonsense mandates?!
Those who think they need personal protection firearms because of fear porn are cowardly. Since all laws are violent and coersive, we can assume (given that violent coersion is a bad thing) that utopia must be an anarchy. Perhaps, however, government is a necessary evil (i.e. the lesser of two evils).

As an aside, this may suggest that heaven is not a utopia. If God is King, and Lucifer was expelled for rebellion, Heaven cannot be an anarchy, and thus cannot be a utopia.
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chewybrian
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Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by chewybrian »

Nick_A wrote: August 4th, 2021, 10:08 am Chewybrian
Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
What is the "alleged greater good?" Who decides if it is greater than the ideal of truth and justice? Which is more important for humanity; the natural impulse for freedom or the goal of the alleged greater good?
What is the greater good? We never really know for sure, but we have our best guesses. We think that the interstate highway system is probably safer and more efficient and effective than a patchwork of private roads. We think that your right to drive drunk is not as valuable as the right of others to be safe from the danger of your drunk driving.

We decide at the ballot box, in the newspapers, on the streets, and in other, often less ethical ways.

What is the bs idea of truth and justice shining through in a system of anarchy wrapped in the flag of 'freedom'? Your freedom has to account for the freedom of others, and a balance must be struck. You can smoke all you want, but you can't impose your second-hand smoke on others. You can drink all you want, but you can't drive drunk. If we are not sure that your sacrifice serves some greater good, then the default position should be to let you do whatever pleases you. However, there must be limits to safeguard others. If you like to drive fast, go to the racetrack. If you want to share the highway with others, there are limits.

This is all pretty straightforward for most people. It only sounds harsh if you have some Ayn Rand garbage ideas about the truth and beauty of stomping about the world without a drop of empathy or understanding for others.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
Protagoras
Posts: 37
Joined: July 10th, 2021, 5:46 am

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Protagoras »

Ecurb wrote: August 4th, 2021, 11:12 am
Protagoras wrote: August 4th, 2021, 10:44 am
Those that think government are there for the citizens best interests are infantile. And those who don't stand up for freedom because of fear porn are cowardly.
You admit the toxicity of govt yet defend their nonsense mandates?!
Those who think they need personal protection firearms because of fear porn are cowardly. Since all laws are violent and coersive, we can assume (given that violent coersion is a bad thing) that utopia must be an anarchy. Perhaps, however, government is a necessary evil (i.e. the lesser of two evils).

As an aside, this may suggest that heaven is not a utopia. If God is King, and Lucifer was expelled for rebellion, Heaven cannot be an anarchy, and thus cannot be a utopia.

What a strawman! What makes you think I'm from the US and own a gun?
Although there is nothing wrong with having a gun.
You have procustean logic. Basically a govt bootlicker. Bootlicking our of fear.
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Ecurb »

Protagoras wrote: August 4th, 2021, 11:43 am
Ecurb wrote: August 4th, 2021, 11:12 am
Protagoras wrote: August 4th, 2021, 10:44 am
Those that think government are there for the citizens best interests are infantile. And those who don't stand up for freedom because of fear porn are

What a strawman! What makes you think I'm from the US and own a gun?
Although there is nothing wrong with having a gun.
You have procustean logic. Basically a govt bootlicker. Bootlicking our of fear.
I didn't say you owned a gun. Those of us who have read your posts know you can't write. Perhaps you should learn to read.
Ecurb
Posts: 2138
Joined: May 9th, 2012, 3:13 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Ecurb »

Protagoras wrote: August 4th, 2021, 11:43 am

What a strawman! What makes you think I'm from the US and own a gun?
Although there is nothing wrong with having a gun.
You have procustean logic. Basically a govt bootlicker. Bootlicking our of fear.
I didn't say you owned a gun. Those of us who have read your posts know you can't write. Perhaps you should learn to read.
Protagoras
Posts: 37
Joined: July 10th, 2021, 5:46 am

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Protagoras »

Ecurb wrote: August 4th, 2021, 12:05 pm
Protagoras wrote: August 4th, 2021, 11:43 am
Ecurb wrote: August 4th, 2021, 11:12 am
Protagoras wrote: August 4th, 2021, 10:44 am
Those that think government are there for the citizens best interests are infantile. And those who don't stand up for freedom because of fear porn are

What a strawman! What makes you think I'm from the US and own a gun?
Although there is nothing wrong with having a gun.
You have procustean logic. Basically a govt bootlicker. Bootlicking our of fear.
I didn't say you owned a gun. Those of us who have read your posts know you can't write. Perhaps you should learn to read.
Lol! Disingenuous as well!
Perhaps you should learn to read your own posts. And OWN your own statements and implications.
Who is us? Your imaginary sectarian tribe?!
Nick_A
Posts: 3364
Joined: April 19th, 2009, 11:45 pm

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Nick_A »

chewybrian wrote: August 4th, 2021, 11:13 am
Nick_A wrote: August 4th, 2021, 10:08 am Chewybrian
Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
What is the "alleged greater good?" Who decides if it is greater than the ideal of truth and justice? Which is more important for humanity; the natural impulse for freedom or the goal of the alleged greater good?
What is the greater good? We never really know for sure, but we have our best guesses. We think that the interstate highway system is probably safer and more efficient and effective than a patchwork of private roads. We think that your right to drive drunk is not as valuable as the right of others to be safe from the danger of your drunk driving.

We decide at the ballot box, in the newspapers, on the streets, and in other, often less ethical ways.

What is the bs idea of truth and justice shining through in a system of anarchy wrapped in the flag of 'freedom'? Your freedom has to account for the freedom of others, and a balance must be struck. You can smoke all you want, but you can't impose your second-hand smoke on others. You can drink all you want, but you can't drive drunk. If we are not sure that your sacrifice serves some greater good, then the default position should be to let you do whatever pleases you. However, there must be limits to safeguard others. If you like to drive fast, go to the racetrack. If you want to share the highway with others, there are limits.

This is all pretty straightforward for most people. It only sounds harsh if you have some Ayn Rand garbage ideas about the truth and beauty of stomping about the world without a drop of empathy or understanding for others.
Your heart is in the right place. Would you be willing to be a part of a discussion free of negativity, on the value of political parties based on Simone Weil's book: ON THE ABOLITION OF ALL POLITICAL PARTIES? If the discussion contains good ideas, I would submit it to the American Weil Society as part of a yearly colloquy. The question is if there is an alternative to the duality of governmental laws and anarchy that makes freedom possible? The AWS has many brilliant scholars from different countries and some would be willing to comment. It may inspire some college students in the future, to discuss and write a collective response as an effort to save thinking from opinion.

Truth, Justice, and Public Good: Simone Weil on Political Manipulation, the Dangers of “For” and “Against,” and How to Save Thinking from Opinion.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
AverageBozo
Posts: 502
Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by AverageBozo »

Nick_A wrote: August 4th, 2021, 10:08 am Chewybrian
Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
What is the "alleged greater good?" Who decides if it is greater than the ideal of truth and justice? Which is more important for humanity; the natural impulse for freedom or the goal of the alleged greater good?
The greater good is whatever is good for the greater number of people, not whatever good has a greater value than another in itself. It is patently impossible to determine which good has the greater value of two goods, but it is possible to measure the number of people who benefit from one good or another.

I think everyone here accepts that truth and justice are good and can be (at least a part of) the greater good. At least that appears to me to be the case for (most of) those who are arguing against you, as well as for you, I’d say.

The point is that there’s no need for anyone to pit truth and justice against the greater good.
Protagoras
Posts: 37
Joined: July 10th, 2021, 5:46 am

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by Protagoras »

AverageBozo wrote: August 4th, 2021, 12:54 pm
Nick_A wrote: August 4th, 2021, 10:08 am Chewybrian
Certainly, many laws restrict freedom for the alleged greater good. But, perhaps not all of them should be viewed in that light. It gets a bit silly to try to argue that freeing slaves is a restriction of freedom.
What is the "alleged greater good?" Who decides if it is greater than the ideal of truth and justice? Which is more important for humanity; the natural impulse for freedom or the goal of the alleged greater good?
The greater good is whatever is good for the greater number of people, not whatever good has a greater value than another in itself. It is patently impossible to determine which good has the greater value of two goods, but it is possible to measure the number of people who benefit from one good or another.

I think everyone here accepts that truth and justice are good and can be (at least a part of) the greater good. At least that appears to me to be the case for (most of) those who are arguing against you, as well as for you, I’d say.

The point is that there’s no need for anyone to pit truth and justice against the greater good.
The "greater good" is an Elitist and patriarchal concept that has been used to oppress and bolster the ruling classes for hundreds of years.
AverageBozo
Posts: 502
Joined: May 11th, 2021, 11:20 am

Re: To Mask or Not to Mask - which is safer?

Post by AverageBozo »

Protagoras wrote: August 4th, 2021, 10:44 am
Those that think government are there for the citizens best interests are infantile.
Government should exist for the sake of its citizens’ best interests, but anyone who believes that that is actually the case is ignorant.

As such, governments should only enact laws that proscribe the exercise of freedom. Anyone who believes that is blind to what is actually going on.

The heart of the matter is that one person’s freedom is capable of infringing on another’s.

It is through political maneuvering that freedoms are ranked so that one freedom is allowed to triumph over another.
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