How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

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AverageBozo
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by AverageBozo »

JackDaydream wrote: September 20th, 2021, 3:12 am @AverageBozo
In many ways I agree that being attached to other human beings rather than material objects is preferable but I do have one reason against this. The problem is that if one becomes too attached to people it is possible to cling to them too much, be demanding, looking to them for fulfillment of personal needs. Too much attachment to another human being can result in dependency, and restrict the other person's wellbeing. So, even though I see people as the most important aspect of daily life, I do prefer to use material objects, through shopping for music as an example, as a coping mechanism rather than burden others if I am feeling unhappy.
Good points. Too much attachment is not a good thing.
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by chewybrian »

JackDaydream wrote: September 20th, 2021, 4:14 am Generally, I agree with your approach about focusing on duties and respecting others as a basis for ethics. However, in reality I think that there are so many conflicting duties. I am also not sure that there are absolute distinctions between virtues and vices. I am not simply thinking about mere moral relativism, but about the difference between virtue as an aspect of piety or as aspect of social ethics. For example, in many spiritual traditions which speak of virtue, masturbation and other aspects of sexual pleasure are considered to be a vice, and war for fighting against injustice is considered to be a virtue. These conceptions of virtue and vice are questionable. So, in seeking freedom in life, all these aspects of morality which life behind the surface can remain as questions and the priority which we give to certain ends in life is about what we give to specific values. It could be argued that values are a set of attachments. I think that it is possible to be attached to a religious or philosophical set of beliefs.

I am inclined to think that it is a matter of balance and being able to think to principles underlying the basis of varying ideas which is important. Would you agree with this? I think that we cannot control what happens or the chain effects of all that we do in life. However, it is probably about doing the best possible juggling act in an uncertain world, and living with this in one's inner life as a basis for some kind of freedom or liberation.
As an aside, I agree that there is no moral basis for morality, and this fits perfectly with my belief that consciousness or awareness is not material. With all material things, we can eventually make an objective case about the best way to proceed. If I have two different cranes from which to choose to lift a rock, you can prove which is best for the job beyond a doubt. If I have a choice to be kind or not to someone who appears to have harmed me, we can have competing ideas of how to proceed and may not be able to resolve that one idea is better.

However... you pretty well know the right answer most of the time. I always picture Epictetus spinning around like Redd Foxx to address objections. "You big dummy!", he seems to say over and over in many ways. His idea of what you control and do not control resolves many issues well enough. Further, the stoic virtues are pretty clear cut and it is tough to say that they are not virtues or that they doo not lead to a better life. The stoic virtues are:

wisdom, courage, justice and temperance.

These amount to a rational response, respectively, to knowledge, adversity, duty and desire. So, we should consider our actions carefully before taking them, and resolve to act in the way that appears to lead to the right result, whether or not it suits our selfish desires or our fears. We can't simply stack logic on our beliefs or desires, but must attempt to emulate Socrates in our deliberations. We can't be afraid to act when action is required, and we should act in ways that won't make us feel ashamed. We should treat others as we would like to be treated, and restrain our actions to what is needed to achieve justice.

The stoics believed that virtue is both necessary and sufficient to make progress, Socrates said that nobody is intentionally evil, and Epictetus said the same in the quote I left above. So, if we have all the virtues perfectly formed, then there will be no conflict. We would all arrive at the same answer. We are never fully informed or developed, so we will make mistakes. But, most of the mistakes can be attributed to secret greed or fear (amounting to ignorance of the value of virtue) rather than a genuine misunderstanding of the meaning of justice or temperance.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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chewybrian
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by chewybrian »

Sorry, I meant to say there is no OBJECTIVE basis for morality.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Sculptor1 »

JackDaydream wrote: September 19th, 2021, 9:26 am This is something which I wonder about and it is a theme within some philosophical and spiritual traditions. The emphasis is upon going beyond the desires and goals of the ego and seeking to aim towards cultivating the higher rather than lower aspects of oneself. In speaking 6attachment I am referring to a sense of clinging or emotional involvement with specific aspects of life and detachment as being a state of not being concerned with these any longer.

I am not sure if the idea of a lower and higher self is completely helpful, but I do think that there is part of human life which is connected to instinctual desires and, in contrast, there is the cultivation of the moral sense and cultivation of mind and consciousness. In many ways, human beings struggle with conflicts which arise in relation to attachments, ranging from seeking material possessions and the fulfillment of desires and emotional wellbeing in relationships. Suffering is engendered when we do not get the results which we seek. This can result in depression and if a person compares him or herself with others and feels lesser in social worth, it can result in a sense of being a 'failure', whereas on a deeper level success cannot be measured to outer aspects of life.

However, I wonder what the state of detachment would amount to and whether it is possible. Is the striving for such a state a desire in itself. Is the fulfillment of desires or pleasures to be avoided, or is such fulfillment an aspiration which can lead one to be happier and a more positive person. Of course, some people do better at achieving their wishes and goals than others. Perhaps, the achievement of detachment works better for those individuals rather than those who are content. But, is detachment a state of indifference, or being cut off from one's emotions, or is a state of greater freedom?
This is rather generalised.
What attachments do you think you can do without, or should do without?
And what are the ones you have to cling to?
What about your feelings of love for a child or parent? Keep or dump?
What about feelings of attachment to a roof over your head? Keep or dump?
What about loving a pet dog? Keep or dump?
What about the computational device that you are now using to read my post? Keep or dump?
DO you think detaching yourself from the concern about the future of the environment is a good one to get rid of?
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@chewybrian

I have only read about the Stoics ideas briefly, and my own reading on this topic is based partly on ideas within Buddhism. I was also thinking today that I initially wondered about the issue of attachment in relation to my background of being brought up within Christianity (Catholicism) and the idea particularly raised in the teaching that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. In explaining this, a lot of people interpret it as being not opposed to wealth in itself but to the attachment to it.


I am not entirely sure about there being no objective criteria for morality because there do appear to be principles of reason and universal principles which apply to cultures. Of course, there are variations but recurrent themes. Even the idea that we should aim to go beyond attachments seems to be a theme in so many different traditions.
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Sy Borg

I have some experience of meditation and I think that many people are less into the idea of overcoming the ego than previously, with mindfulness being a direction being pursued. However, I have read a fair amount of literature related to the idea of overcoming the ego. At times, I have been influenced by such ideas, but I believe that the ego can be too dominant or too weak, and it is probably about getting the right balance.

I do believe that with the issue of attachment, in most cases the extremes are probably best avoided and the Buddhist idea of 'the middle way' can be helpful.
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Sculptor1

I think that the questions which you raise are the ones which I thought may arise in discussion on this thread because I think that they are ones which we face on a daily basis. I definitely reflect on my own attachments. I actually feel that my own sense of clinging has been challenged a lot because I have been through experiences of losing friends through suicides and I lost my job. I am sure that I am not in any way unique in having been through losses. But, I do cling onto certain attachments, especially significant others. I am even attached to this philosophy site and another one and get cross if wifi is not working. I also realise that I am attached to my books and music in a big way. I collect so many CDs and books and have to declutter often. I believe that a lot of people are becoming more minimalist and that is a positive way forward really.

I often think about what I could live without and what would be the worst possible losses, and I think that loss of sight or loss of accommodation would be the worst possible things which I could ever imagineI don't have any pets and the only family I have is my mother. I do fear rejection from people who I am close to.

I am particularly attached to the idea of the future planet and future generations even though I have not brought any children into the world and it worries me more than death. I would not wish to get rid of this attachment at all because it is one of my central values. I am more concerned about how indifferent many people are to the future of the human race. Even though I am interested in the whole question of attachments, I am definitely not an advocate of indifference.

So, I think that I am really into exploring attachment honesty. Having reflected as much on my own attachments as is advisable on a forum site, I am interested in knowing yours or others' attachments. I think that the topic can go beyond the abstract level of philosophy because attachment is an aspect of our daily living philosophy experience.
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by psyreporter »

JackDaydream wrote: September 20th, 2021, 3:46 am @psychreporter
Your reply, incorporating the ideas of Spinoza and the idea of 'hope' in ethics is interesting. What this makes me wonder about is whether it is possible to be too attached to outcomes of actions? This is difficult though because whether acting for our own interests or those of others, all action is aimed at ends. Also, we cling on to hope in difficult situations, and if we lose all hope, what state of mind are we left in? I am not sure that it is possible to become detached from what is going on in the world and that would seem to amount to an attitude of nothing matters.
When one considers the value in the world - which includes everything of which it can be said that it 'matters' within the scope of a human perspective - one could argue that that value logically must have been preceded by an aspect that is necessarily meaningful but that cannot be 'value' by the simple logical truth that something cannot be the origin of itself.

When one considers the concept pure meaning as the only ground for relevance in the scope of one's perspective on life, one can become detached or go beyond attachment of 'value' while fulfilling a moral life, which includes optimal performance in life's bigger whole, such as a community of people, or humanity in general.

Morality (a moral life) can be achieved by addressing the question "What is 'good'?".

Aristotle considers a state of philosophical contemplation (eudaimonia) the greatest virtue (highest human good). It is a strive to serve life: the discovery of "good" from which 'value' follows.
PsyReporter.com | “If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.”
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Sy Borg »

JackDaydream wrote: September 20th, 2021, 3:49 pm @Sy Borg

I have some experience of meditation and I think that many people are less into the idea of overcoming the ego than previously, with mindfulness being a direction being pursued. However, I have read a fair amount of literature related to the idea of overcoming the ego. At times, I have been influenced by such ideas, but I believe that the ego can be too dominant or too weak, and it is probably about getting the right balance.

I do believe that with the issue of attachment, in most cases the extremes are probably best avoided and the Buddhist idea of 'the middle way' can be helpful.
Agree. I suspect that people are less into overcoming ego because of the pressures brought to bear by high populations, high levels of inequality and destruction of the natural environment (until now, humanity's reliable cash cow and refuge). Ego is basically a mental and emotional shield, so increased threats mean the "shield" is more often raised in defence.
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Nick_A »

Jack
So, I think that I am really into exploring attachment honesty. Having reflected as much on my own attachments as is advisable on a forum site, I am interested in knowing yours or others' attachments. I think that the topic can go beyond the abstract level of philosophy because attachment is an aspect of our daily living philosophy experience.
What is attachment?


“Attachment is the great fabricator of illusions; reality can be obtained only by someone who is detached. ” ~ Simone Weil

As understand it, there are two main causes for a human being becoming a victim of attachments and their illusions. The first is the lower parts of the tripartite soul Plato describes in the Chariot analogy being out of balance. Understanding is the result of the Mind, emotions, and sensations experiencing a given phenomenon as a whole. The human condition has caused these three parts to live in opposition with each other so we live in parts. A person experiencing the external world can think one thing, feel another, while sensing something else all at the same time and assume they understand it since they know its name. It is an absurd situation and it is only imagination and illusions that make life tolerable and acceptable in Plato's cave.

The second primary reason is the collective loss of the human ability for conscious attention. We know how to use directed attention when we study a book for example. But conscious attention is the ability to see ourselves from above. We can walk down the street in our normal way but we can also observe ourselves walking. It is like the two birds analogy in Hinduism. The lower bird or ourselves do the walking while the higher bird observes consciously. When a person becomes capable of conscious attention, it is the beginning of conscious freedom and from habitual illusions.

When a person isn't attached to money it can be a good tool for the person and for others. However when we are attached to money, it now controls us. But living out of balance and incapable of conscious attention, a person cannot tell the difference and do what they have been conditioned to do.

Humanity is approaching the time when the glorification of attachments will produce a situation where men no longer control machines but machines control men. Successful Life in Plato's cave will be the ultimate goal. Yet there will be this minority who struggle for detachment and conscious freedom from Plato's cave. They will be an inspiration. I will always support them regardless of how the world must persecute them.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Tegularius »

That depends on how many things one is still attached to. I think as one gets older that becomes less and less critical and may get to the point where it's possible to be almost completely without attachments of any kind. While one is alive, it does not include those which are non-discretionary. An attachment is not an attachment if it defaults to a necessity where choices are seldom optional; the only exception are decisions regarding continuance or simply deciding to chuck it. The fewer the bonds, the less grounded to existence one becomes.
The earth has a skin and that skin has diseases; one of its diseases is called man ... Nietzsche
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: September 19th, 2021, 9:26 am This is something which I wonder about and it is a theme within some philosophical and spiritual traditions. The emphasis is upon going beyond the desires and goals of the ego and seeking to aim towards cultivating the higher rather than lower aspects of oneself. In speaking 6attachment I am referring to a sense of clinging or emotional involvement with specific aspects of life and detachment as being a state of not being concerned with these any longer.

I am not sure if the idea of a lower and higher self is completely helpful, but I do think that there is part of human life which is connected to instinctual desires and, in contrast, there is the cultivation of the moral sense and cultivation of mind and consciousness. In many ways, human beings struggle with conflicts which arise in relation to attachments, ranging from seeking material possessions and the fulfillment of desires and emotional wellbeing in relationships. Suffering is engendered when we do not get the results which we seek. This can result in depression and if a person compares him or herself with others and feels lesser in social worth, it can result in a sense of being a 'failure', whereas on a deeper level success cannot be measured to outer aspects of life.

However, I wonder what the state of detachment would amount to and whether it is possible. Is the striving for such a state a desire in itself. Is the fulfillment of desires or pleasures to be avoided, or is such fulfillment an aspiration which can lead one to be happier and a more positive person. Of course, some people do better at achieving their wishes and goals than others. Perhaps, the achievement of detachment works better for those individuals rather than those who are content. But, is detachment a state of indifference, or being cut off from one's emotions, or is a state of greater freedom?
"defusion" is a term in psychotherapy that refers to some level of detachment from one's own thoughts (especially thoughts about oneself and thoughts about past experiences) and feelings. This is because attachments to these thoughts and feelings (which is a kind of 'self-identification with') may cause mental suffering and/or dysfunctional behaviour.
So there may be instances when at (least some level of) detachment is therapeutic. From that it may be concluded that detachment is possible and also have advantages even when attachment doesn't appear to be a case for therapy - just think about the detachment of a scientist towards her/his work and thoughts about personal career which may support the scientifically neutral approach.
On the other hand imputing inherently good or bad qualities to mental states (be it attachment or detachment) is itself an instance of attachment and due to the impermanence of all mental states and lack of self control may have unwanted effects of dysfunction: avoidance behaviour, anxiety, sadness, discontent, mental fixation etc.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Sculptor1 »

JackDaydream wrote: September 20th, 2021, 4:39 pm @Sculptor1

I think that the questions which you raise are the ones which I thought may arise in discussion on this thread because I think that they are ones which we face on a daily basis. I definitely reflect on my own attachments. I actually feel that my own sense of clinging has been challenged a lot because I have been through experiences of losing friends through suicides and I lost my job. I am sure that I am not in any way unique in having been through losses. But, I do cling onto certain attachments, especially significant others. I am even attached to this philosophy site and another one and get cross if wifi is not working. I also realise that I am attached to my books and music in a big way. I collect so many CDs and books and have to declutter often. I believe that a lot of people are becoming more minimalist and that is a positive way forward really.

I often think about what I could live without and what would be the worst possible losses, and I think that loss of sight or loss of accommodation would be the worst possible things which I could ever imagineI don't have any pets and the only family I have is my mother. I do fear rejection from people who I am close to.

I am particularly attached to the idea of the future planet and future generations even though I have not brought any children into the world and it worries me more than death. I would not wish to get rid of this attachment at all because it is one of my central values. I am more concerned about how indifferent many people are to the future of the human race. Even though I am interested in the whole question of attachments, I am definitely not an advocate of indifference.

So, I think that I am really into exploring attachment honesty. Having reflected as much on my own attachments as is advisable on a forum site, I am interested in knowing yours or others' attachments. I think that the topic can go beyond the abstract level of philosophy because attachment is an aspect of our daily living philosophy experience.
The reason I asked this quesion is because it is my experience that those that ask it, and those that embark on a policy of resistence to attachments seem to be on some sort of self flaggelating crusade in which big things that seem to all and sundry as good and necessary are shunned by the practicioner to deminstrate how pure and aloof they are.
Vegetarians, Vegans and so on are on a moral crusade, and there is a tendancy for them to get so absorbed by their ideology that they take unreasonable and irrational steps. But what characterises them is their moral loftiness.
And most always there are many contradictions in their behaviours. Whilst they talk about the natural world and preserving the planet they are often to be found sitting round their heated swimming pool eating vegan camapes with ingredients that have been imported by aeroplane from foreign lands where many of the population are living below the poverty line unable to till enough earth to feed themsleves because of massive illegal land grabs by those that want to peddle luxury goods to the West, so that Vegans can feel good about themselves.
Sorry if this all sounds a bit cynical, but we live in a world that deserves it.
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Sculptor1
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Tegularius wrote: September 20th, 2021, 9:55 pm That depends on how many things one is still attached to. I think as one gets older that becomes less and less critical and may get to the point where it's possible to be almost completely without attachments of any kind. While one is alive, it does not include those which are non-discretionary. An attachment is not an attachment if it defaults to a necessity where choices are seldom optional; the only exception are decisions regarding continuance or simply deciding to chuck it. The fewer the bonds, the less grounded to existence one becomes.
So you are saying that without attachments we are not grounded?
Surely that would depend on the actual type of attachment, and how it was gathered?

Being attached to Sudoku only means being attached to the means of aquisition such as a tablet or phone.
Yet being attached to frshly killed meat would mean being attached to running about in the wilds with a weapon to kill your prey.
I suppose you could give up either, or keep both.
The big question is what are the attachments that we OUGHT to give up and why?
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@psyreporter

I think that the idea of contemplative 'detachment' and of living in the world, including morality, is a definite possibility but also a tension. That is where emotions come in. Some people see atrocities in the news and it is so remote that it becomes like background entertainment.. Others watch and are simply overwhelmed emotionally by it all, as they perceive the suffering.

Some people live in the heart and others in the head, and sometimes this varies at different times. I think that being able to have the contemplative attitude of detachment, without being cut off from the compassion of moral action involves integrating the rational and emotional, from a higher level of consciousness is aided by meditation. Generally, I think that an underlying issue is whether it is possible to feel too little or too much? There is also the balance of attachment to concerns of self and feelings for others, and the question is how may this may be achieved most effectively?
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