How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

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JackDaydream
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How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

This is something which I wonder about and it is a theme within some philosophical and spiritual traditions. The emphasis is upon going beyond the desires and goals of the ego and seeking to aim towards cultivating the higher rather than lower aspects of oneself. In speaking 6attachment I am referring to a sense of clinging or emotional involvement with specific aspects of life and detachment as being a state of not being concerned with these any longer.

I am not sure if the idea of a lower and higher self is completely helpful, but I do think that there is part of human life which is connected to instinctual desires and, in contrast, there is the cultivation of the moral sense and cultivation of mind and consciousness. In many ways, human beings struggle with conflicts which arise in relation to attachments, ranging from seeking material possessions and the fulfillment of desires and emotional wellbeing in relationships. Suffering is engendered when we do not get the results which we seek. This can result in depression and if a person compares him or herself with others and feels lesser in social worth, it can result in a sense of being a 'failure', whereas on a deeper level success cannot be measured to outer aspects of life.

However, I wonder what the state of detachment would amount to and whether it is possible. Is the striving for such a state a desire in itself. Is the fulfillment of desires or pleasures to be avoided, or is such fulfillment an aspiration which can lead one to be happier and a more positive person. Of course, some people do better at achieving their wishes and goals than others. Perhaps, the achievement of detachment works better for those individuals rather than those who are content. But, is detachment a state of indifference, or being cut off from one's emotions, or is a state of greater freedom?
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JackDaydream
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to go Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

I am just throwing in a quote for reflecting upon the question which I have raised from Schopenhauer,
'Will is the exclusive possession of man on this plane of consciousness.
It divides him from the brute in whom instinctive desire only is active.
Desire, in its wildest application, is the creative force in the Universe. In this sense it is indistinguishable from Will; but we men never know desire under this form while we remain as men...Most of men live in and by desire, mistaking it for will. But he who would separate will from desire, and make his will the ruler; for desire is unstable and ever changing, while will is steady and constant'.
My own thinking about this is that the ideal is to develop the will which goes beyond the fleeting whims of desire, but it is not easy to achieve and most of the time we are locked into the pangs of desires and attachments, which are like a prison, and consume our energies. I am interested to know what others think about this.
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to go Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Nick_A »

JackDaydream wrote: September 19th, 2021, 9:26 am This is something which I wonder about and it is a theme within some philosophical and spiritual traditions. The emphasis is upon going beyond the desires and goals of the ego and seeking to aim towards cultivating the higher rather than lower aspects of oneself. In speaking 6attachment I am referring to a sense of clinging or emotional involvement with specific aspects of life and detachment as being a state of not being concerned with these any longer.

I am not sure if the idea of a lower and higher self is completely helpful, but I do think that there is part of human life which is connected to instinctual desires and, in contrast, there is the cultivation of the moral sense and cultivation of mind and consciousness. In many ways, human beings struggle with conflicts which arise in relation to attachments, ranging from seeking material possessions and the fulfillment of desires and emotional wellbeing in relationships. Suffering is engendered when we do not get the results which we seek. This can result in depression and if a person compares him or herself with others and feels lesser in social worth, it can result in a sense of being a 'failure', whereas on a deeper level success cannot be measured to outer aspects of life.

However, I wonder what the state of detachment would amount to and whether it is possible. Is the striving for such a state a desire in itself. Is the fulfillment of desires or pleasures to be avoided, or is such fulfillment an aspiration which can lead one to be happier and a more positive person. Of course, some people do better at achieving their wishes and goals than others. Perhaps, the achievement of detachment works better for those individuals rather than those who are content. But, is detachment a state of indifference, or being cut off from one's emotions, or is a state of greater freedom?
A person has to sincerely decide their aim for their life. Do they want truth or pleasure? A person needing the truth of their existence has to be willing to sacrifice the pleasures they are attached to that keep them as they are.

The human condition keeps Man attached to imagination or man made desires. They actually determine the great majority of our lives. Yet imagination deprives a human being of their conscious potential or the ability to serve conscious human purpose.

This denial is very powerful. Attachments govern our lives. In fact they are considered our lives. We don’t want to die so gladly accept attachments to what satisfies our man made desires and its need for pleasure at the expense of experiencing the truths which prevent human conscious evolution.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to go Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Nick_A »

JackDaydream wrote: September 19th, 2021, 1:02 pm I am just throwing in a quote for reflecting upon the question which I have raised from Schopenhauer,
'Will is the exclusive possession of man on this plane of consciousness.
It divides him from the brute in whom instinctive desire only is active.
Desire, in its wildest application, is the creative force in the Universe. In this sense it is indistinguishable from Will; but we men never know desire under this form while we remain as men...Most of men live in and by desire, mistaking it for will. But he who would separate will from desire, and make his will the ruler; for desire is unstable and ever changing, while will is steady and constant'.
My own thinking about this is that the ideal is to develop the will which goes beyond the fleeting whims of desire, but it is not easy to achieve and most of the time we are locked into the pangs of desires and attachments, which are like a prison, and consume our energies. I am interested to know what others think about this.
Albert Einstein — 'The true value of a human being can be found in the degree to which he has attained liberation from the self.'

The human organism is born with an essence of several qualities. As the child matures it acquires a personality which we call ourselves. It is a mixed blessing. The human condition described by Plato explains how our lower parts creating our personality have become corrupted.

A person normally does not differentiate between will and desire as you suggest. However an act of will is a conscious quality but a reaction to desire is a mechanical response. Plato describes Man as a beast which Simone Weil elaborates on as the Great Beast. This means that like all Beasts, Man is a creature of reaction and incapable of will. True human freedom begins with acknowledging what we are and have become in comparison to conscious human potential

Plato describes the beast master in book V1 of the Republic:
I might compare them to a man who should study the tempers and desires of a mighty strong beast who is fed by him--he would learn how to approach and handle him, also at what times and from what causes he is dangerous or the reverse, and what is the meaning of his several cries, and by what sounds, when another utters them, he is soothed or infuriated; and you may suppose further, that when, by continually attending upon him, he has become perfect in all this, he calls his knowledge wisdom, and makes of it a system or art, which he proceeds to teach, although he has no real notion of what he means by the principles or passions of which he is speaking, but calls this honourable and that dishonourable, or good or evil, or just or unjust, all in accordance with the tastes and tempers of the great brute. Good he pronounces to be that in which the beast delights and evil to be that which he dislikes...
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to go Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by AverageBozo »

Desirable? Not at all, but not in all cases.

Possible? Not at all, unless you are psychopathic or just very disciplined.

But what detachment/attachment are we talking about here: persons, things or ideas?

It is desirable and healthy for humans to be attached to other humans, as is the case for any social being.

But being attached to things or ideas is folly. A writing pen of sentimental value writes no more clearly than any other pen. A favorite restaurant or bar is subject to changing management or going out of business. To cling tenaciously to your ideas is to avoid learning at the cost of obstinacy.

So detachment is not desirable except when human to human. And detachment is barely possible for ordinary humans.
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to go Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by psyreporter »

JackDaydream wrote: September 19th, 2021, 9:26 amHowever, I wonder what the state of detachment would amount to and whether it is possible. Is the striving for such a state a desire in itself. Is the fulfillment of desires or pleasures to be avoided, or is such fulfillment an aspiration which can lead one to be happier and a more positive person. Of course, some people do better at achieving their wishes and goals than others. Perhaps, the achievement of detachment works better for those individuals rather than those who are content. But, is detachment a state of indifference, or being cut off from one's emotions, or is a state of greater freedom?
According to Spinoza, an attempt to escape evil with good results in evil. According to Spinoza, good only follows by reason.
Spinoza wrote:He who is led by fear, and does good in order to escape evil, is not led by reason.
...
Corollary.--Under desire which springs from reason, we seek good directly, and shun evil indirectly.
https://ethics.spinozism.org/text.php

When one makes an ethical claim, one essentially attempts to 'cling on' for hope and as Spinoza has indicated in his work Ethics, there can be no hope without fear and to guide one by fear results in evil. This may explain why ethical notions deviate from reason.

When one strives for detachment, would that be to escape a perceived 'evil' or would there be a reasonable ground? When one intends to escape attachment as an evil, according to the reasoning by Spinoza, it could result in evil.

To achieve a desirable state, it may be best to start with the question "What is a good state?" and most importantly: why? When one establishes reason for a 'good' state, it logically naturally follows.
PsyReporter.com | “If life were to be good as it was, there would be no reason to exist.”
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to go Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by chewybrian »

JackDaydream wrote: September 19th, 2021, 1:02 pm My own thinking about this is that the ideal is to develop the will which goes beyond the fleeting whims of desire, but it is not easy to achieve and most of the time we are locked into the pangs of desires and attachments, which are like a prison, and consume our energies. I am interested to know what others think about this.
I think you will find many philosophers saying in many different ways, while giving many different reasons, that we should suppress or overcome or redirect our desires. My favorite is Epictetus. His reasoning is that we should focus on what we can control and not allow the rest of reality to impact us. When we attach our desires to anything outside our control (which is a LOT more than most people would readily concede) then we are bound to suffer. If we desire anything external to our own will, then we immediately become a slave (in a sense) of some other person or of events beyond our control. Therefore, it follows that we should limit our desires and aversions to the things we do control, such that we can always win...
You may be unconquerable, if you enter into no combat in which it is not in your own control to conquer. (The Enchiridion)
It follows that our desires should align with virtue and our aversions with vice, and all other alleged fortune or misfortune should carry no weight for us...
if it concerns anything not in our control, be prepared to say that it is nothing to you. (The Enchiridion)
So, if you desire to treat others with respect, to follow your duties as a citizen, to be kind to your children or your pets, then you have the power to follow through and ensure that your desires are met. If you are averse to being rude to people you meet, or yelling at your children or mistreating your dog, you have the power to avoid these things, and again you are free. But, if you want to be famous or win the World Series or buy a new Corvette, you are subject to the whims of fate and any person who decides to step between you and your desires. You are no longer free. If you are averse to getting sick or watching your football team lose, then you are a slave to fate, and you are bound to suffer.

If you accept his logical (if not widely held) definition of freedom, which is to be unimpeded in fulfilling all your desires and in avoiding all that to which you are averse, then you must concede that you can not be evil and free. Freedom arrives when you only desire to do what you think is right, and you are only averse to that which you believe is wrong. In such a state, you are truly free to go out into the world unimpeded. Fate may take your physical freedom of motion, your worldly goods, or even your life, but it can't take your will unless you assent.
He is free who lives as he wishes to live; who is neither subject to compulsion nor to hindrance, nor to force; whose movements to action are not impeded, whose desires attain their purpose, and who does not fall into that which he would avoid. Who, then, chooses to live in error? No man. Who chooses to live deceived, liable to mistake, unjust, unrestrained, discontented, mean? No man. Not one then of the bad lives as he wishes; nor is he, then, free. And who chooses to live in sorrow, fear, envy, pity, desiring and failing in his desires, attempting to avoid something and falling into it? Not one. Do we then find any of the bad free from sorrow, free from fear, who does not fall into that which he would avoid, and does not obtain that which he wishes? Not one; nor then do we find any bad man free...

Well then let us recapitulate the things which have been agreed on. The man who is not under restraint is free, to whom things are exactly in that state in which he wishes them to be; but he who can be restrained or compelled or hindered, or thrown into any circumstances against his will, is a slave. But who is free from restraint? He who desires nothing that belongs to others. And what are the things which belong to others? Those which are not in our power either to have or not to have, or to have of a certain kind or in a certain manner. Therefore the body belongs to another, the parts of the body belong to another, possession belongs to another. If, then, you are attached to any of these things as your own, you will pay the penalty which it is proper for him to pay who desires what belongs to another. This road leads to freedom, that is the only way of escaping from slavery, to be able to say at last with all your soul:

Lead me, O Zeus, and thou O destiny, The way that I am bid by you to go. (The Discourses)
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Sy Borg »

JackDaydream wrote: September 19th, 2021, 9:26 amHowever, I wonder what the state of detachment would amount to and whether it is possible. Is the striving for such a state a desire in itself. Is the fulfillment of desires or pleasures to be avoided, or is such fulfillment an aspiration which can lead one to be happier and a more positive person. Of course, some people do better at achieving their wishes and goals than others. Perhaps, the achievement of detachment works better for those individuals rather than those who are content. But, is detachment a state of indifference, or being cut off from one's emotions, or is a state of greater freedom?
I don't think there is any formula. It depends on one's disposition (certainly introversion v extroversion) and circumstances - environmental, social, financial.

Life appears to me less a matter of achieving goals and dreams as letting go of them after seeing them go up in smoke. Fortunately, it's not uncommon for "the grapes to be sour" anyway. The more one has achieved, the more one has to lose, so it's hardly "enlightened" to let go of that which you never managed to grip firmly anyway.

Then again, who cares about being "enlightened"? It's just another "ego token" one can safely allow to allow to drop by the wayside. Still, it seems to me that humans do best when they are striving for something, rather than relaxing on autopilot. To that end, the subject matter seems to matter less than the act of striving - be it creative, social, scientific, religious, political, whatever. Certainly enthusiasm is a quality found in most long-lived people, along with cussedness. Each acts as a motivator. Cussedness is enthusiasm too - for victory or to prove doubters wrong.

How to parse enthusiasm and attachment? To that end, it helps to cultivate multiple interests so, if one interest goes stale or becomes difficult to access, there will be other compelling projects to act as conduits for healthful personal growth.

This could be said to be shifting the goalposts, just coping with attachment rather than eliminating it. At this stage, I prefer the idea of striving with relaxed (not neurotic) attachment until the Reaper appears, at which time it really is time to let go.
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Nick_A »

What does a person do after practicing detachment and come to experience that they live in an absurd world and their reactions are also absurd? Can person inwardly profit by verifying that they live in an absurd world and have also become absurd?
Absurdism is a philosophical perspective which holds that the efforts of humanity to find meaning or rational explanation in the universe ultimately fail (and, hence, are absurd) because no such meaning exists, at least to human beings. The word absurd in this context does not mean "logically impossible," but rather "humanly impossible."

Absurdism implies a tragic tone and feelings of frustration that arise out of the contradiction between the human quest for the meaning of life and its inaccessibility.
A person verifies that their attachments to the world are absurd and detachment just reveals the power of attachment. Does a person needing to experience human meaning and purpose just give up because they have verified their absurdity.

What if absurdity is the result of attachment to partial truths sustained by imagination. The answer to absurdity is "awakening". But how does one awaken to the power of imagination when as we are it provides "meaning?" Simone Weil describes imagination as opposed to conscious contemplation:
Imagination is always the fabric of social life and the dynamic of history. The influence of real needs and compulsions, of real interests and materials, is indirect because the crowd is never conscious of it.

Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life.
Thomas Merton wrote after reading A Fellowship in Love, Jacques Chabaud, 1964) and was challenged and inspired by her writing. “Her non-conformism and mysticism are essential elements in our time and without her contribution we remain not human.”

How can detachment lead to awakening to human meaning after a person verifies their own absurdity while living in an absurd world? Yet we can become human and some people need this more than the pleasures of attachment and imagination. What does it mean to awaken so as to become human?
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Nick_A

I thank you for your comments, which show that you have read and thought a lot on the matter. It is interesting that so many thinkers from Plato, Einstein and many others have stressed the importance of going beyond attachments which is contradictory to the values accepted in Western society. I do believe that it is important to think about personal goals. The cultural norm is to to aim towards success in outer life, in acquiring a fulfilling life in the outer world, involving getting a good job, acquiring possessions and having successful relationships. An emphasis on 'awakening' is often considered to be secondary.

Personally, I do value the idea of awakening to liberation but I don't think that it is such an easy thing to achieve, because we are embodied and social beings. I believe that I have gone through periods of gravitating towards both, or of juggling them. It also involves the spectrum of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and it can be difficult to aim for the higher aspects when the basics are not achieved, although that is not absolute. It may be that some aspects of the suffering of unfulfilled needs take one to higher stages indirectly, as for example failed relationships. I have found that some psychological interpretations of Maslow's theory make it appear as if the lower needs are more important because they are in many ways essential. I have found on psychology courses Maslow's emphasis on peak experiences get left out.. On a mental health nursing course I mentioned peak experiences in class discussion about Maslow's approach and I don't think that the tutor was aware of that side of his ideas at all.

The emphasis on awakening is stressed a lot more in Eastern systems of ideas. I am also aware that some people have suggested that such a search may be possible after one has achieved the worldly goals. I think that this may be simplistic because many people don't ever achieve the worldly needs and if they keep waiting for that it can be a case of being locked into fulfillment of the basics.

As far as pleasure is concerned it is a complicated issue, and this has been an ongoing dilemma within spiritual traditions, with some people aiming for asceticism and others seeing pleasure, including sexuality as a source of creative potential. But, definitely in a world where we confront absurdity, it is questionable why one would seek to overcome pleasure and, often, pleasure can be an antidote to the harsh existential realities of life.
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@AverageBozo
In many ways I agree that being attached to other human beings rather than material objects is preferable but I do have one reason against this. The problem is that if one becomes too attached to people it is possible to cling to them too much, be demanding, looking to them for fulfillment of personal needs. Too much attachment to another human being can result in dependency, and restrict the other person's wellbeing. So, even though I see people as the most important aspect of daily life, I do prefer to use material objects, through shopping for music as an example, as a coping mechanism rather than burden others if I am feeling unhappy.
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@psychreporter
Your reply, incorporating the ideas of Spinoza and the idea of 'hope' in ethics is interesting. What this makes me wonder about is whether it is possible to be too attached to outcomes of actions? This is difficult though because whether acting for our own interests or those of others, all action is aimed at ends. Also, we cling on to hope in difficult situations, and if we lose all hope, what state of mind are we left in? I am not sure that it is possible to become detached from what is going on in the world and that would seem to amount to an attitude of nothing matters.
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@chewybrian

Generally, I agree with your approach about focusing on duties and respecting others as a basis for ethics. However, in reality I think that there are so many conflicting duties. I am also not sure that there are absolute distinctions between virtues and vices. I am not simply thinking about mere moral relativism, but about the difference between virtue as an aspect of piety or as aspect of social ethics. For example, in many spiritual traditions which speak of virtue, masturbation and other aspects of sexual pleasure are considered to be a vice, and war for fighting against injustice is considered to be a virtue. These conceptions of virtue and vice are questionable. So, in seeking freedom in life, all these aspects of morality which life behind the surface can remain as questions and the priority which we give to certain ends in life is about what we give to specific values. It could be argued that values are a set of attachments. I think that it is possible to be attached to a religious or philosophical set of beliefs.

I am inclined to think that it is a matter of balance and being able to think to principles underlying the basis of varying ideas which is important. Would you agree with this? I think that we cannot control what happens or the chain effects of all that we do in life. However, it is probably about doing the best possible juggling act in an uncertain world, and living with this in one's inner life as a basis for some kind of freedom or liberation.
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Sy Borg

I definitely don't think that there are any easy answers to the issue of attachment and I have found that in reading the various philosophies there is a lot of disagreement. I also believe that the individual circumstances of each person are so unique. Life is not fair and some people can fulfill their personal goals so much easier than others. Some people do well in education and careers whereas others fail for a variety of reasons. Some individuals have the looks and social skills to do better in relationships than others. Also, clear establishment of personal goals may be important rather than simply allowing oneself to be swamped amidst the events in the external world.

I definitely look and read various systems of thought trying to make sense of experience and thinking about values. I read a lot on philosophies which speak of enlightenment. However, these often occur within the context of specific metaphysical or worldviews, and we may indeed question what is the purpose of enlightenment?
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Re: How Desirable or Possible is to Be Detached or Beyond Attachments?

Post by Sy Borg »

JackDaydream wrote: September 20th, 2021, 4:30 amI definitely look and read various systems of thought trying to make sense of experience and thinking about values. I read a lot on philosophies which speak of enlightenment. However, these often occur within the context of specific metaphysical or worldviews, and we may indeed question what is the purpose of enlightenment?
Some teachers will point out the danger of ego attachment to spiritual attainments, that is, relative mastery achieved over mental or bodily processes after much practice. You will see such people in any serious meditation or yoga practice, unable to resist the sweet feeling of being "holier-than-thou", but that simply reduces their attainments to gimmicks.

As far as I can tell, one can't go too far wrong with Marcus Aurelius and the stoics.
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