Whose Lives Have Value?

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Ecurb
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Ecurb »

Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 8:21 am

The thread has proven that secularists cannot distinguish between objective and subjective values and doing so provokes all sorts of ad home attacks. So who suffers? The kids of the future. A classic example of Plato's Ship of Fools. Everyone has their opinion but no one knows wherethey are going, the way home, or even if there is one.

Nick whines about ad hom attacks in the same paragraph that claims those attacking him are fools. Al;righty, then.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Sy Borg »

GE Morton wrote: November 5th, 2021, 10:06 am
Sy Borg wrote: November 4th, 2021, 11:02 pm
We went through this before. The fire you mention - and you already knew this - mostly burnt extremely sparse and remote areas. It was relatively inconsequential, as you know. The 19/20 fires burnt far more trees and habitats, including human ones: https://knowledge.aidr.org.au/resources ... w-2019-20/
We did? Are you Greta with a new moniker?

Those previous fires were "inconsequential" only because they didn't burn as many houses, businesses, farmlands, and other human artifacts. From Mother Nature's point of view they were just as consequential as the 2019-20 fires; indeed, more so.
Those fires were "inconsequential" because they had a small head count - not just humans, but animals. The 19/20 fires killed billions of animals. The outback deserts, as compared with eastern forests, are barren. The dominant species are kangaroos and they can readily flee. Compare that with the 60,000 koalas killed in the fire, one fifth of their total number in the wild.

The biomass of forests are obviously vastly greater per square km than desert environments. There's no comparison. One fire travelled around remote, unpopulated areas, with very few animals. The 19/20 fires that Scott Morrison was warned about long beforehand (and still failed to prepare), tore through thick habitats, resulting in dozens of threatened species losing more than 80% of their habitat, including a number of critically endangered plants. Oh, and it caused all those problems for humans that you listed too.

I changed my forum name because certain people see women as emblems of the culture wars. It made moderating much more complicated (some men cannot accept a women having "authority" over them), and being called a whore by those who found me inconvenient over and over was tiresome. I kept the same avatar to let regulars know it was still me, but you must have slipped through the cracks. I like that you recognised me by my content rather than my style :)
Nick_A
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Ecurb wrote: November 5th, 2021, 10:30 am
Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 8:21 am

The thread has proven that secularists cannot distinguish between objective and subjective values and doing so provokes all sorts of ad home attacks. So who suffers? The kids of the future. A classic example of Plato's Ship of Fools. Everyone has their opinion but no one knows wherethey are going, the way home, or even if there is one.

Nick whines about ad hom attacks in the same paragraph that claims those attacking him are fools. Al;righty, then.
Why not do us a favor and ignore me. You clearly do not understand the thread. This is not about me but what happens in the world and the ways in which believers are ridiculed and its effects on the kids who have the inner need for meaning not originating in the world. You want to attack so attack others but leave me out of it
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Sy Borg
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 4:00 pm
Nick whines about ad hom attacks in the same paragraph that claims those attacking him are fools. Al;righty, then.
Why not do us a favor and ignore me. You clearly do not understand the thread. This is not about me but what happens in the world and the ways in which believers are ridiculed ...
I know the feeling. Whenever anyone disagrees with me, I know it has to be discrimination because I'm a woman. After all, the disagreement could not possibly stem from simply not according with my statements, can it? Disagreement must always be personal and tribal rather than content-based, right?
Nick_A
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Sy Borg wrote: November 5th, 2021, 4:46 pm
Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 4:00 pm
Nick whines about ad hom attacks in the same paragraph that claims those attacking him are fools. Al;righty, then.
Why not do us a favor and ignore me. You clearly do not understand the thread. This is not about me but what happens in the world and the ways in which believers are ridiculed ...
I know the feeling. Whenever anyone disagrees with me, I know it has to be discrimination because I'm a woman. After all, the disagreement could not possibly stem from simply not according with my statements, can it? Disagreement must always be personal and tribal rather than content-based, right?
You react as as a secularist which is us against them or he against me. You do not know what it means to ACT as a universalist reflecting a higher perspective.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
GE Morton
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by GE Morton »

Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 4:00 pm This is not about me but what happens in the world and the ways in which believers are ridiculed and its effects on the kids who have the inner need for meaning not originating in the world.
Kids who feel that need --- a "need" no doubt induced via parental indoctrination --- are perfectly free to conjure up any fantasies they wish to satisfy it. But if they proceed to publicly claim that those fantasies have any reality outside their own heads they should be prepared to produce objective evidence or not be taken seriously.
GE Morton
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by GE Morton »

Sy Borg wrote: November 5th, 2021, 3:18 pm
Those fires were "inconsequential" because they had a small head count - not just humans, but animals. The 19/20 fires killed billions of animals. The outback deserts, as compared with eastern forests, are barren. The dominant species are kangaroos and they can readily flee. Compare that with the 60,000 koalas killed in the fire, one fifth of their total number in the wild.

The biomass of forests are obviously vastly greater per square km than desert environments. There's no comparison. One fire travelled around remote, unpopulated areas, with very few animals. The 19/20 fires that Scott Morrison was warned about long beforehand (and still failed to prepare), tore through thick habitats, resulting in dozens of threatened species losing more than 80% of their habitat, including a number of critically endangered plants. Oh, and it caused all those problems for humans that you listed too.
Check the list I linked again and the links below. The 74/75 fires burned 117 million hectares, 6.5 times the 19/20 fires. Of those 117 million, 3.5 million were in NSW, 7.3 million in QLD. In 19/20 NSW lost 5.5 million hectares, QLD only 2.5 million. So the total loss for those two states in 74/75 exceeded that for 19/20.

NSW also lost 3.5 million hectares in 84/85.

I assume that the losses of plants and animals would be proportional to the hectares burned in those states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974%E2%8 ... ire_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%8 ... ire_season

So, except for the economic loss to humans, the 19/20 fires were not the worst in Oz history.
Nick_A
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Nick_A »

GE Morton wrote: November 5th, 2021, 6:16 pm
Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 4:00 pm This is not about me but what happens in the world and the ways in which believers are ridiculed and its effects on the kids who have the inner need for meaning not originating in the world.
Kids who feel that need --- a "need" no doubt induced via parental indoctrination --- are perfectly free to conjure up any fantasies they wish to satisfy it. But if they proceed to publicly claim that those fantasies have any reality outside their own heads they should be prepared to produce objective evidence or not be taken seriously.
what a callous thing to write. You are typical of those who condemn things and people they don't understand.

"Pity them my children, they are far from home and no one knows them. Let those in quest of God be careful lest appearances deceive them in these people who are peculiar and hard to place; no one rightly knows them but those in whom the same light shines" ~ Meister Eckhart

You cannot understand what these kids of growing understanding have to deal with in this callous world. They are hated for being different and those who support them are also attacked. Sometimes being rejected is the greatest compliment one can get. Unfortunately, the kids are often too young to know it. Not many Simone's in the world who can deal with their gift.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Sy Borg
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Sy Borg »

GE Morton wrote: November 5th, 2021, 6:47 pm
Sy Borg wrote: November 5th, 2021, 3:18 pm
Those fires were "inconsequential" because they had a small head count - not just humans, but animals. The 19/20 fires killed billions of animals. The outback deserts, as compared with eastern forests, are barren. The dominant species are kangaroos and they can readily flee. Compare that with the 60,000 koalas killed in the fire, one fifth of their total number in the wild.

The biomass of forests are obviously vastly greater per square km than desert environments. There's no comparison. One fire travelled around remote, unpopulated areas, with very few animals. The 19/20 fires that Scott Morrison was warned about long beforehand (and still failed to prepare), tore through thick habitats, resulting in dozens of threatened species losing more than 80% of their habitat, including a number of critically endangered plants. Oh, and it caused all those problems for humans that you listed too.
Check the list I linked again and the links below. The 74/75 fires burned 117 million hectares, 6.5 times the 19/20 fires. Of those 117 million, 3.5 million were in NSW, 7.3 million in QLD. In 19/20 NSW lost 5.5 million hectares, QLD only 2.5 million. So the total loss for those two states in 74/75 exceeded that for 19/20.

NSW also lost 3.5 million hectares in 84/85.

I assume that the losses of plants and animals would be proportional to the hectares burned in those states.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974%E2%8 ... ire_season
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%8 ... ire_season

So, except for the economic loss to humans, the 19/20 fires were not the worst in Oz history.
Why should I have to repeat myself? I made clear that tThe difference between the eastern bushland and desert scrub is profound. It's illogical to use area as the sole barometer of severity.

https://www.science.org.au/news-and-eve ... recedented
The Australian bushfires [of 2019/20] —why they are unprecedented

In terms of hectares burnt the Australian fires are the largest to affect any of the megadiverse countries—that is, larger than the 2019 Amazon and 2019 Californian fires.

Fires of greater geographical extent have occurred in Australia in the past (e.g. fires in central Australia in 1974-75 covered over 100 million hectares). However, these fires burned largely the grasslands of inland Australia. Unlike forest fires these grassland fires are less intense and the ecosystems can more rapidly recover. Also, there is far lower economic impacts or loss of life because these fires occur in vast remote landscapes.

Australian Academy of Science Fellow Professor Chris Dickman has estimated that Australia has lost at least a billion birds, mammals and reptiles this bushfire season. This figure does not include insects, bats, fish and frogs.

... On this biodiversity measure alone, the scale of these bushfires is unprecedented anywhere in the world. With many species residing in already burnt or threatened areas, the impact of the fires on species extinction will be ongoing after the bushfire season.

The combination of a number of other factors also make this fire unprecedented in Australia’s history. These include:

- the intensity of the fires early in Australia’s fire season
- current dry, warm and windy conditions
- unusual fire behaviour
- the indirect and direct impact on Australia’s environment, including greenhouse gas emissions and severe air pollution across population centres.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 7:13 pm
GE Morton wrote: November 5th, 2021, 6:16 pm
Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 4:00 pm This is not about me but what happens in the world and the ways in which believers are ridiculed and its effects on the kids who have the inner need for meaning not originating in the world.
Kids who feel that need --- a "need" no doubt induced via parental indoctrination --- are perfectly free to conjure up any fantasies they wish to satisfy it. But if they proceed to publicly claim that those fantasies have any reality outside their own heads they should be prepared to produce objective evidence or not be taken seriously.
... You cannot understand what these kids of growing understanding have to deal with in this callous world. They are hated for being different and those who support them are also attacked.
Sounds like you are describing the ongoing torment of queer and autistic young people, the former to some extent hated due to long-term Christian persecution. Consider your own callousness in context. None of us are saints.

As for Christian kids, they do just fine. They find each other and hang out. In all of my schooling, I never saw a child harassed for being religious. Never. Sometimes others would chuckle about them at times, but nothing harsh, not even close to the cruel and persistent treatment meted out to queer, autistic and mentally ill young people.

So could you please skip the Christian martyr game - no one is interested in you personally - and simply define "objective value" in a manner befitting a philosophy forum?
Nick_A
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Sy Borg wrote: November 5th, 2021, 7:31 pm
Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 7:13 pm
GE Morton wrote: November 5th, 2021, 6:16 pm
Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 4:00 pm This is not about me but what happens in the world and the ways in which believers are ridiculed and its effects on the kids who have the inner need for meaning not originating in the world.
Kids who feel that need --- a "need" no doubt induced via parental indoctrination --- are perfectly free to conjure up any fantasies they wish to satisfy it. But if they proceed to publicly claim that those fantasies have any reality outside their own heads they should be prepared to produce objective evidence or not be taken seriously.
... You cannot understand what these kids of growing understanding have to deal with in this callous world. They are hated for being different and those who support them are also attacked.
Sounds like you are describing the ongoing torment of queer and autistic young people, the former to some extent hated due to long-term Christian persecution. Consider your own callousness in context. None of us are saints.

As for Christian kids, they do just fine. They find each other and hang out. In all of my schooling, I never saw a child harassed for being religious. Never. Sometimes others would chuckle about them at times, but nothing harsh, not even close to the cruel and persistent treatment meted out to queer, autistic and mentally ill young people.

So could you please skip the Christian martyr game - no one is interested in you personally - and simply define "objective value" in a manner befitting a philosophy forum?
You write of the outer man and I refer to the inner Man which is why you avoided this quote. It refers to tke inner Man

"Pity them my children, they are far from home and no one knows them. Let those in quest of God be careful lest appearances deceive them in these people who are peculiar and hard to place; no one rightly knows them but those in whom the same light shines" ~ Meister Eckhart


What is the source of the light in secularism or the visible realm and what is its source in the intellectual realm of Plato's philosophy? The secularist says there is no intellectual realm. There is only the light of the visible realm and the calling to argue about Trump which you will continue to defend. That is its limits
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Sy Borg
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote: November 6th, 2021, 10:44 am
Sy Borg wrote: November 5th, 2021, 7:31 pm
Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 7:13 pm
GE Morton wrote: November 5th, 2021, 6:16 pm

Kids who feel that need --- a "need" no doubt induced via parental indoctrination --- are perfectly free to conjure up any fantasies they wish to satisfy it. But if they proceed to publicly claim that those fantasies have any reality outside their own heads they should be prepared to produce objective evidence or not be taken seriously.
... You cannot understand what these kids of growing understanding have to deal with in this callous world. They are hated for being different and those who support them are also attacked.
Sounds like you are describing the ongoing torment of queer and autistic young people, the former to some extent hated due to long-term Christian persecution. Consider your own callousness in context. None of us are saints.

As for Christian kids, they do just fine. They find each other and hang out. In all of my schooling, I never saw a child harassed for being religious. Never. Sometimes others would chuckle about them at times, but nothing harsh, not even close to the cruel and persistent treatment meted out to queer, autistic and mentally ill young people.

So could you please skip the Christian martyr game - no one is interested in you personally - and simply define "objective value" in a manner befitting a philosophy forum?
You write of the outer man and I refer to the inner Man which is why you avoided this quote. It refers to tke inner Man

"Pity them my children, they are far from home and no one knows them. Let those in quest of God be careful lest appearances deceive them in these people who are peculiar and hard to place; no one rightly knows them but those in whom the same light shines" ~ Meister Eckhart


What is the source of the light in secularism or the visible realm and what is its source in the intellectual realm of Plato's philosophy? The secularist says there is no intellectual realm. There is only the light of the visible realm and the calling to argue about Trump which you will continue to defend. That is its limits
Given your pride in your Russian background, your support for Trump is perhaps to be expected. Personally, I don't care for lying would-be dictators who incite violent insurrection and care nothing for nature.

"Secularism" is not a movement, it's just life without religion. So secular people are more likely to find their inspiration individually and privately rather than collectively and ostentatiously, as per religion. I suspect that the spirituality of many secular and theistic people are very similar to each other, just that the former forego egoistic spiritual display behaviour.
Nick_A
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Nick_A »

Sy Borg wrote: November 6th, 2021, 3:54 pm
Nick_A wrote: November 6th, 2021, 10:44 am
Sy Borg wrote: November 5th, 2021, 7:31 pm
Nick_A wrote: November 5th, 2021, 7:13 pm

... You cannot understand what these kids of growing understanding have to deal with in this callous world. They are hated for being different and those who support them are also attacked.
Sounds like you are describing the ongoing torment of queer and autistic young people, the former to some extent hated due to long-term Christian persecution. Consider your own callousness in context. None of us are saints.

As for Christian kids, they do just fine. They find each other and hang out. In all of my schooling, I never saw a child harassed for being religious. Never. Sometimes others would chuckle about them at times, but nothing harsh, not even close to the cruel and persistent treatment meted out to queer, autistic and mentally ill young people.

So could you please skip the Christian martyr game - no one is interested in you personally - and simply define "objective value" in a manner befitting a philosophy forum?
You write of the outer man and I refer to the inner Man which is why you avoided this quote. It refers to tke inner Man

"Pity them my children, they are far from home and no one knows them. Let those in quest of God be careful lest appearances deceive them in these people who are peculiar and hard to place; no one rightly knows them but those in whom the same light shines" ~ Meister Eckhart


What is the source of the light in secularism or the visible realm and what is its source in the intellectual realm of Plato's philosophy? The secularist says there is no intellectual realm. There is only the light of the visible realm and the calling to argue about Trump which you will continue to defend. That is its limits
Given your pride in your Russian background, your support for Trump is perhaps to be expected. Personally, I don't care for lying would-be dictators who incite violent insurrection and care nothing for nature.

"Secularism" is not a movement, it's just life without religion. So secular people are more likely to find their inspiration individually and privately rather than collectively and ostentatiously, as per religion. I suspect that the spirituality of many secular and theistic people are very similar to each other, just that the former forego egoistic spiritual display behaviour.
In other words you do not know what is meant by the philosophical/religious meaning of light. The source of light may be more than the light switch.
Man would like to be an egoist and cannot. This is the most striking characteristic of his wretchedness and the source of his greatness." Simone Weil....Gravity and Grace
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Sy Borg
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Sy Borg »

Nick_A wrote: November 6th, 2021, 9:45 pm
Sy Borg wrote: November 6th, 2021, 3:54 pm
Nick_A wrote: November 6th, 2021, 10:44 am
Sy Borg wrote: November 5th, 2021, 7:31 pm
Sounds like you are describing the ongoing torment of queer and autistic young people, the former to some extent hated due to long-term Christian persecution. Consider your own callousness in context. None of us are saints.

As for Christian kids, they do just fine. They find each other and hang out. In all of my schooling, I never saw a child harassed for being religious. Never. Sometimes others would chuckle about them at times, but nothing harsh, not even close to the cruel and persistent treatment meted out to queer, autistic and mentally ill young people.

So could you please skip the Christian martyr game - no one is interested in you personally - and simply define "objective value" in a manner befitting a philosophy forum?
You write of the outer man and I refer to the inner Man which is why you avoided this quote. It refers to tke inner Man

"Pity them my children, they are far from home and no one knows them. Let those in quest of God be careful lest appearances deceive them in these people who are peculiar and hard to place; no one rightly knows them but those in whom the same light shines" ~ Meister Eckhart


What is the source of the light in secularism or the visible realm and what is its source in the intellectual realm of Plato's philosophy? The secularist says there is no intellectual realm. There is only the light of the visible realm and the calling to argue about Trump which you will continue to defend. That is its limits
Given your pride in your Russian background, your support for Trump is perhaps to be expected. Personally, I don't care for lying would-be dictators who incite violent insurrection and care nothing for nature.

"Secularism" is not a movement, it's just life without religion. So secular people are more likely to find their inspiration individually and privately rather than collectively and ostentatiously, as per religion. I suspect that the spirituality of many secular and theistic people are very similar to each other, just that the former forego egoistic spiritual display behaviour.
In other words you do not know what is meant by the philosophical/religious meaning of light. The source of light may be more than the light switch.
Correction: In other words you do not know what is meant by the p̶h̶i̶l̶o̶s̶o̶p̶h̶i̶c̶a̶l̶/religious meaning of light.

Just as you have no idea about scientific concepts I raise because you don't pay much attention to science, I don't pay much attention to religion and don't know tons about it.

Without Googling, one assumes that the "light" is the sliver of God that resides within us all. Of course, only theists have access to this because they label it based on the writings of Iron Age Middle Easterners.

Just as the boogeyman won't hurt you if you don't see him, your conception suggests that God will not be inaccessible to those who don't give it a name.
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Sculptor1
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Re: Whose Lives Have Value?

Post by Sculptor1 »

"America is sick and her sickness endangers the whole world. Given America’s immense power and resources, a cure must be found within. The first thing that is needed is an education teaching that hate must be avoided, that excellence does not consist in violence. To achieve this change of outlook is an immense task which America’s “Radicals” must attempt to carry out. Whether the necessary heroism will be forthcoming, I do not know. We can only hope that it may be so."
— Bertrand Russell, Bertrand Russell’s America: Volume II (1945–1970), Part II. The Increase of American Violence, Published in truncated form as The Ethos of Violence in The Minority of One, January 1965, p. 607
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