Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

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PoeticUniverse
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by PoeticUniverse »

JackDaydream wrote: October 10th, 2021, 1:30 pm As far as achieving happiness, that is complex because it may be defined in so many ways. But, as for unhappiness, some may be able to cope with misery or in spite of it. It is possible to be 'happy' with misery, or even to be a happy nihilist. But, there is the fuzzy area where misery can become clinical depression, or other forms of mental illness, and it may be that some people can be aided with support for emotional distress through therapy as a means of preventing the process of becoming unwell mentally
For mental ills take pills!

Life’s still emotionally primitive:
Negative feedback mechanisms in
The central nervous system, now useless,
Send out thousands-of-years-old messages.

Emotions are molecular events,
Some forced upon us all, like jealousy,
And others, like aggression, born from low
Serotonin, but NOT from the Devil.

— The Feedback Loop —

Persistence of thought, known as obsession,
Is enabled by low serotonin:
That same negative thought breeds depression,
That same anxious thought induces panic.

— The Same Root Cause —

Odd that Paroxetine can cure compulsion,
Panic, anxiety, and depression?
No, for obsession is the casual root,
As all involve the persistence of thought.

— Stick-to-it-ive-ness —

Persistence of thought is the curse that leads
To great accomplishments through obsession,
The driving force behind the creative arts,
That driven sense which cannot be denied.

— Just a Short Term Fix —

Alcohol can raise serotonin in
The short run, but decreases it long term,
A doomed attempt at self-medication,
But hold on, relief is being researched.

— Digest This —

Born without the enzymes that digest milk,
She supplies it via Lactaid tablets.
Born without the zymes that digest mood,
Zoloft prolongs her mood regulators.

— The Long Way —

Behavior modification can raise
Serotonin, too, though not as quickly
As medications, like Paroxetine,
But it still works—it just takes longer.

— Learning is Brain Re-Wiring —

Behavior modification can change us, too,
For the worse, if we see too much aggression,
Or do the same thing too long, such as overtime,
Getting well grooved into that same old rut.

— In the Zone —

The highest zone is absolute happiness,
Though even the best can slip to well-being,
And sometimes, down into the bearable zone;
Next come the anger, apathy, and death zones.

 — The (D)anger Zone —

Once we drop into the anger zone, the
Analytical mind cuts out, giving way
To the primitive reactive mind, a
Moronic state in which even beige seems black.

— Thus, All Become Equal —

The simple reactive mind ‘thinks’ that, say,
A perceived bad tone equals insult equals
Hate equals great anger equals lash out
Equals big fight equals kill equals death.

— The Weak Link —

The mind is quite weak in the fighting off
Of emotions, for they have a direct
Pathway into consciousness, bypassing
The rational, thinking part of the brain.

— Primitive Controllers —

Emotions usually take sole control,
Brain logic relegated to the sidelines,
Being ineffective against a mood;
It’s a wonder what’s really is in charge.

— You’re History —

Reason and emotion are hard to coordinate,
Each having a separate pathway to the mind;
That perhaps is all there is to tell about the
Miseries and follies of human history.

— The Stain on the Brain —

Emotions are slow to react to logic,
Like molasses or slow forming crystals,
Or not at all, like rocks, blocking us.
Unless and until they change, progress halts.

— Molecular Events —

Some ways that we think and feel depends but
Upon chemicals, neurotransmitters
Like Dopamine and Serotonin that
Fluctuate; so, how meaningful are strange moods?

— The Creative Solution Space —

Let reactions sail on by; just observe them,
But don’t act on them. This puts some distance
Between you and your conditioned response,
A space which grants a modicum of ‘free will’.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by JackDaydream »

@PoeticUniverse

A good poem, and it makes some interesting points. People often seek alcohol when feeling low and it is a depressant, so is likely to have the opposite effect to the desired one. Serotonin is an interesting chemical and fortunately the newer antidepressants which target this neurotransmitter have far less problematic side-effects than the older forms of medication for depression and anxiety. It is also interesting that the drug 'Ecstasy' involves a major rush of Seretonin, on a much larger scale than SSRI antidepressants. Apparently, if someone has a bad depressive spell after using Ecstasy, this can be rectified through the SSRI antidepressant. Of course, Western society may becoming a Prozac culture, with so many people being prescribed it, or similar forms of medication, in GP surgeries all the time.

Also, another major form of therapy is that of art therapy and arts therapies. I did a foundation course in art therapy and began training to be an art psychotherapist. It was interesting to study and explore. Generally, some people often find that this form of therapy is helpful, especially in dealing with experiences which they find hard to verbalize. In England, there have been cutbacks in funding of art therapy, and this is connected with the difficulties of measuring the effectiveness of the therapy and, also, a move towards more cost-effective therapies, including online ones.
stevie
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: October 10th, 2021, 1:30 pm @stevie

I think that 'balance' is subjective, but each person knows intuitively whether they are feeling alrighor not with their own state of mind. A person may have a sense of needing therapy or not. It is also possible that therapy may be recommended by others, including professionals and the person does not wish to have any. There are some who wish to have it briefly and I know some who have felt dependent on it and struggle if they are not able to access it on a regular basis.
"knowing intuitively" is the crucial expression you are applying which according to my categorization of "knowledge" and "belief" can't be called "knowing/knowledge" because "intuition" implies a capacity of the individual but "knowing" refers to the community/collective the individual belongs to. So your "knows intuitively" is an oxymoron.
JackDaydream wrote: October 10th, 2021, 1:30 pm As far as achieving happiness, that is complex because it may be defined in so many ways. But, as for unhappiness, some may be able to cope with misery or in spite of it. It is possible to be 'happy' with misery, or even to be a happy nihilist. But, there is the fuzzy area where misery can become clinical depression, or other forms of mental illness, and it may be that some people can be aided with support for emotional distress through therapy as a means of preventing the process of becoming unwell mentally
I have no theory as to the topics "happiness" or "unhappiness". But I think that only an adequate amount of suffering can motivate an individual to seek help from therapists.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Belindi
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by Belindi »

Poetic Universe wrote:
Emotions are molecular events,
Some forced upon us all, like jealousy,
And others, like aggression, born from low
Serotonin, but NOT from the Devil.
While I agree with your "NOT from the Devil", I disagree that jealousy and aggression are forced upon us. These unpleasant feelings have a common cause in fear which is forced upon us. When the subject of jealousy therapy understands that jealousy is caused by fear of loss plus attribution of the cause of fear to a specific other then the subject can begin to address these points separately.

The same therapeutic process of learning via reason applies also to aggression which is also a reaction to fear.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by JackDaydream »

@Belindi

I was reading your entry about jealousy and thinking how central this aspect of emotions has been in the development of psychodynamic approach of Melanie Klein. She looked at the way internal objects are formed in childhood relationships, especially in the bond between the child and mother. In her book, 'Envy and Gratitude' she said,
'A distinction should be drawn between envy, jealousy, and greed. Envy is the angry feeling that another person that another person possesses and enjoys something desirable_the envious impulse being to take it away or spoil it. Moreover, envy implies the subject's relation to one person only and goes back to the earliest exclusive relation with the mother. Jealousy is based on envy, but involves a relation to at least two people; it is mainly concerned with love that the subject feels is his due and has been taken away, or is in danger of being taken away from him by his rival.'

She traces the primitive basis of how such emotions may form in the splitting processes within childhood and thinks that these emotional formations may be analysed and worked with in the therapy process.
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JackDaydream
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

You suggest that only 'an adequate amount of suffering can motivate an individual to seek help from a therapist', and to some extent I think that is true because many people would not see the point. However, beyond working with specific 'problems' it can also be about deeper self awareness than most people can achieve by themselves or in the context of everyday encounters. It can involve analysis of dreams and even the experience of lying on the couch, which gives a different way of viewing the world in the exploration of self with another. Some people would not want to step into this territory at all, but others feel excited by the possibilities opened up by exploring the subconscious.
Belindi
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by Belindi »

JackDaydream wrote: October 11th, 2021, 10:34 am @Belindi

I was reading your entry about jealousy and thinking how central this aspect of emotions has been in the development of psychodynamic approach of Melanie Klein. She looked at the way internal objects are formed in childhood relationships, especially in the bond between the child and mother. In her book, 'Envy and Gratitude' she said,
'A distinction should be drawn between envy, jealousy, and greed. Envy is the angry feeling that another person that another person possesses and enjoys something desirable_the envious impulse being to take it away or spoil it. Moreover, envy implies the subject's relation to one person only and goes back to the earliest exclusive relation with the mother. Jealousy is based on envy, but involves a relation to at least two people; it is mainly concerned with love that the subject feels is his due and has been taken away, or is in danger of being taken away from him by his rival.'

She traces the primitive basis of how such emotions may form in the splitting processes within childhood and thinks that these emotional formations may be analysed and worked with in the therapy process.
That makes sense to me, because it's in childhood that cognitions attach to emotional reactions . With increasing maturity plus self knowledge it's possible to understand that while fear for one's safety and power is an emotional reflex, the cognitive connections that are formed with fear are superimposed upon basic fear. Jealousy, aggression, and envy are all based on fear of loss of power and have an additional learned, cognitive component that attaches the fear to other persons or something else in the environment.
I have taken this psychology from Spinoza whose psychology notes in his book 'Ethics ' are really easy to read.And also from Antonio Damasio who is a clinician who follows Spinoza.
stevie
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: October 11th, 2021, 10:43 am @stevie

You suggest that only 'an adequate amount of suffering can motivate an individual to seek help from a therapist', and to some extent I think that is true because many people would not see the point. However, beyond working with specific 'problems' it can also be about deeper self awareness than most people can achieve by themselves or in the context of everyday encounters. It can involve analysis of dreams and even the experience of lying on the couch, which gives a different way of viewing the world in the exploration of self with another. Some people would not want to step into this territory at all, but others feel excited by the possibilities opened up by exploring the subconscious.
"exploring the subconscious" is an oxymoron from my perspective because whatever one might get at doesn't reach beyond the conscious (conceptual thinking) which is determined by conditioned verbal behaviour. So for me "the subconscious" is merely a metaphysical speculation like e.g. "the soul".
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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JackDaydream
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

I agree that the subconscious and unconscious are very ambiguous terms, and both Freud and Jung saw them differently, as well as various other thinkers. However, in a way there must be some kind of subconscious, in the form of layers because there is only so much one can hold in conscious awareness. Memory is also an important aspect because some people can remember so much more about early years than others.

There is also the issue of painful memories recalled in therapy which Freud decided were false memories. However, some have queried this and believe that it was related to Freud's choice not to explore the nature of childhood trauma and sexual abuse.

As far as the subconscious is concerned, there is so much discussion about consciousness in philosophy, but, perhaps the idea of the unconscious and subconscious has not been explored as fully as it could be.
PoeticUniverse
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by PoeticUniverse »

JackDaydream wrote: October 12th, 2021, 7:01 am in a way there must be some kind of subconscious, in the form of layers because there is only so much one can hold in conscious awareness.
Good one, Jack, about consciousness not being able to hold very much, it showing the current results of what the subconscious (the brain) just put together.
stevie
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: October 12th, 2021, 7:01 am @ stevie

... However, in a way there must be some kind of subconscious, in the form of layers because there is only so much one can hold in conscious awareness. Memory is also an important aspect because some people can remember so much more about early years than others.
I don't think that "there must be some kind of subconscious". "subconscious" appears to be a variable you are using for what you don'*t know. But actually you are hinting at the basis of consciousness and the knowledge available is that it belongs to materiality, i.e. the biochemical structures and substances of the brain which represent the storage for arising consciousnesses including memory. So there is no need to introduce a third concept "subconsciouness besides consciousness (or 'mentality') and materiality (or 'matter') if one does not want to stray into some kind of mysticism.

JackDaydream wrote: October 12th, 2021, 7:01 am There is also the issue of painful memories recalled in therapy which Freud decided were false memories. However, some have queried this and believe that it was related to Freud's choice not to explore the nature of childhood trauma and sexual abuse.

As far as the subconscious is concerned, there is so much discussion about consciousness in philosophy, but, perhaps the idea of the unconscious and subconscious has not been explored as fully as it could be.
It is not "the unconscious and subconscious" but the biochemical structures and substances of the brain and their interactive functions and how mental conditionings manifest on this material level that have not yet been explored enough by neurosciences.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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JackDaydream
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

Consciousness has a basis in the material aspects of the brain, but it may involve complex feedback loops. What I mean is that that emotions can be altered chemically, but also by experiences directly. Some people have more immediate reactions to life events, while others may have delayed ones. But, emotions can be worked upon directly through medication, especially antidepressants and mood stabilisers. There is also the idea that therapy can affect emotions on a direct neurochemical level too. One essential idea behind cognitive behaviour therapy is that the thoughts people have about experiences affect moods directly rather than the experiences themselves. So, working with thoughts about experiences is a potential area for working upon.

Neuroscientists are gaining more knowledge about the brain chemicals all the time. Many psychologists and philosophers don't think that much of the idea of the subconscious. In some ways, it may be a term which refers to memories, or even the underlying narrative aspects of autobiographical memory. Presently, so much knowledge is gained of the biochemistry of moods and memory, but how this translates into actual mental experiences is more complex. The 'I' must have an important role, because otherwise people would just be bundles of experiences.
stevie
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by stevie »

JackDaydream wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:00 pm @stevie

Consciousness has a basis in the material aspects of the brain, but it may involve complex feedback loops. What I mean is that that emotions can be altered chemically, but also by experiences directly.
Experiences are chemical events, so there isn't an "also by experiences directly". Same applies to "feedback" loops.
JackDaydream wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:00 pm Some people have more immediate reactions to life events, while others may have delayed ones. But, emotions can be worked upon directly through medication, especially antidepressants and mood stabilisers.
"antidepressants and mood stabilisers" are again chemicals.
JackDaydream wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:00 pm There is also the idea that therapy can affect emotions on a direct neurochemical level too. One essential idea behind cognitive behaviour therapy is that the thoughts people have about experiences affect moods directly rather than the experiences themselves. So, working with thoughts about experiences is a potential area for working upon.
Yes, but this "working with thoughts" and all of "cognitive behaviour" and "cognitive behaviour therapy" boils down the processes on the level of materiality (biochemical structures and substances and chemical transmitters etc.)
JackDaydream wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:00 pm Neuroscientists are gaining more knowledge about the brain chemicals all the time. Many psychologists and philosophers don't think that much of the idea of the subconscious.
As I've tried to express above from the perspective of neuroscience "the subconscious" is a myth.
JackDaydream wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:00 pm In some ways, it may be a term which refers to memories, or even the underlying narrative aspects of autobiographical memory.
As I said "the subconscious" is an unecessary concept trying to fill the gap of lack of neuroscientific progress with speculation.
JackDaydream wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:00 pm Presently, so much knowledge is gained of the biochemistry of moods and memory, but how this translates into actual mental experiences is more complex.
You said it!
JackDaydream wrote: October 13th, 2021, 3:00 pm The 'I' must have an important role, because otherwise people would just be bundles of experiences.
Considering that according to the conceptual framing of material science the 'I' is a product of material processes people would not be "bundles of experiences" but spheres of material process causing mental effects that are self-referencing.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
Belindi
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by Belindi »

Stevie wrote:
Considering that according to the conceptual framing of material science the 'I' is a product of material processes people would not be "bundles of experiences" but spheres of material process causing mental effects that are self-referencing.
That's true. However the entire material word and all in it may be mind dependent. At this juncture the question of solipsism arises, but is rebutted by the fact that each subjective bundle of experiences(the' I') is defined by experiencing the other(the 'you') i.e. its environment of other bundles of experiences, which of course are not necessarily human bundles of experiences.
stevie
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Re: Self-knowledge, Suffering and Therapy

Post by stevie »

Belindi wrote: October 14th, 2021, 5:17 am Stevie wrote:
Considering that according to the conceptual framing of material science the 'I' is a product of material processes people would not be "bundles of experiences" but spheres of material process causing mental effects that are self-referencing.
That's true. However the entire material word and all in it may be mind dependent.
That's appropriately expressed. However different results may ensue from these different perspectives. So taking one of these perspectives may be determined by different purposes which - again from the materiality perspective - aren't driven by mental intentions (of an 'I') but by particular fluctuations inherent in materiality that might follow some basic physico-chemincal laws. However to me my materiality perspective appears more consistent because I've learned that perceptions of the five senses (which are all based on materiality) are more reliable than mere thoughts. But of course that has to include that my expressing of the materiality perspective also is merely driven by material fluctuations.
Belindi wrote: October 14th, 2021, 5:17 am At this juncture the question of solipsism arises, but is rebutted by the fact that each subjective bundle of experiences(the' I') is defined by experiencing the other(the 'you') i.e. its environment of other bundles of experiences, which of course are not necessarily human bundles of experiences.
The basis of solipsism is the affirmation of truth of own personal self (or 'I') which appears to be logically impossible from both perspectives, from the perspective of monistic mind [dependence] (which you have brought up) and from the perspective of monistic materiality [dependence] (which I have brought up). That may be why cognitive dissonance is inherent in solipsism.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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