Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

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ecnetsis
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Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by ecnetsis »

Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness




Part I:


Let us consider the following statement:

S1: Unconsciousness can persist for at most zero seconds.

I suggest that this statement is true.

***

Argument:

Let us suppose the following:

- O_A is a conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- O_A is the only conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- m1 is the moment "1:00 pm, Jan. 1, 2000."
- m2 is the moment "2:00 pm, Jan. 1, 2000."
- O_A ceases to be conscious at the moment m1.
- O_A does not regain consciousness until the moment m2.
- The time dimension of spacetime does not pass.
- When O_A is unconscious, O_A's subjective time does not pass.

***

Now let us consider the following statements:

S2: Between m1 and m2, time passes for a duration greater than zero seconds.
S3: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for a duration greater than zero seconds.
S4: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for at most zero seconds.
S5: When O_A is unconscious, O_A's subjective time does not pass.
S6: O_A can remain unconscious for at most zero seconds.

***

If statement S2 is false, S3 is false. S2 is false. Therefore, S3 is false.(1)

If statement S3 is false, S4 is true. S3 is false. Therefore, S4 is true.

If statement S5 is true, S6 is true. S5 is true. Therefore, S6 is true.

If statement S6 is true, S1 is true. S6 is true. Therefore, S1 is true.(2),(3),(4)


Notes:

1. In order for an unconscious state to persist, time has to pass.

2. We tend to think of unconsciousness as a state that can persist. However, unconsciousness is a state that cannot persist.

3. The argument presented above forces us to rethink the nature of consciousness.

4. Unconsciousness can exist for at most one moment (i.e., for at most zero seconds).



Part II:


In order for time flow to occur between m1 and m2, Newton's time must exist. Newton's time does not exist. Therefore, time flow cannot occur between m1 and m2.(1)

***

If consciousness does not exist, time flow does not occur.(2) If time flow does not occur, persistence does not occur. Therefore, if consciousness does not exist, persistence does not occur.

***

If unconsciousness exists, consciousness does not exist. If consciousness does not exist, persistence does not occur. Therefore, if unconsciousness exists, persistence does not occur.

***

Can unconsciousness persist?

A necessary condition for unconsciousness to persist is the following: Persistence must occur while unconsciousness exists. Note however, persistence cannot occur while unconsciousness exists. The answer to the question posed above is therefore "no."

We must conclude that unconsciousness cannot persist.

***

Let us consider the following statements:

S1: O_A's subjective time passes if and only if O_A is conscious.
S2: Between m1 and m2, O_A is not conscious.

S3: Between m1 and m2, O_A's subjective time does not pass.

**

S4: No objective time passes between points in Einstein's time.(3),(4)
S5: m1 and m2 are points in Einstein's time.

S6: No objective time passes between m1 and m2.

**

S7: O_A's subjective time does not pass between m1 and m2.
S8: No objective time passes between m1 and m2.

S9: No time passes between m1 and m2.

***

If S1 and S2 are true, then S3 is true. S1 and S2 are true. Therefore, S3 is true.

If S4 and S5 are true, then S6 is true. S4 and S5 are true. Therefore, S6 is true.

If S7 and S8 are true, then S9 is true. S7 and S8 are true. Therefore, S9 is true.


Notes:

1. Newton's time is the only kind of time that can elapse between m1 and m2. Neither Einstein's time nor O_A's subjective time elapses between m1 and m2. (Note: O_A's subjective time elapses if and only if O_A is conscious.)

2. Note: I'm referring to a scenario in which only one conscious observer (i.e., O_A) exists.

3. Einstein's time is static. (It never "passes" or "flows.")

4. The terms "pass," "flow," and "elapse" are synonymous.




Clarification:

When I say "unconsciousness exists," I mean "no observer is conscious."

***

(Note: If O_A is unconscious, the statement "unconsciousness exists" is true. If O_A is conscious, the statement "unconsciousness exists" is false.)



Adhanom Andemicael
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Re: Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by AverageBozo »

The above is tedious but true. Thank you
ecnetsis
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Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by ecnetsis »

Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness




Part III:


Let us suppose the following:

- O_A is a conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- O_A is located on Earth and is at rest with respect to the Earth.
- m1 is the moment "12:00 pm, Jan. 1, 2000."
- m2 is the moment "12:00 pm, Jan. 1, 2020."
- O_A ceases to be conscious at the moment m1.
- O_A does not regain consciousness until the moment m2.
- When O_A is unconscious, O_A's subjective time does not pass.(1)
- The time dimension of spacetime does not pass.
- O_B is another conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- O_B is located on Earth and is at rest with respect to the Earth.
- Between the moments m1 and m2, O_B experiences 20 years of elapsed (subjective) time.
- O_C is a third conscious observer that exists in spacetime.
- O_C is located on Earth and is at rest with respect to the Earth.
- At the moment m1, O_C accelerates to a velocity close to that of light.
- At the moment m2, O_C is at rest with respect to the Earth.
- Between the moments m1 and m2, O_C experiences 10 years of elapsed (subjective) time.


***

Now let us consider the following statements:

S10: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for 20 years.
S11: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for 10 years.
S12: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

***

We might think that statements S10 and S11 are true. However, these statements are false.

Statement S12 appears to be false. This statement, however, is true.(2)(3)(4)(5)(6)



Notes:

1. O_A's subjective time passes if and only if O_A is conscious.

2. No objective time (OT) passes between the moments m1 and m2. (The total amount of OT that passes between
these moments is zero seconds.)

3. O_A's subjective time (STA) does not pass between the moments m1 and m2. (The total amount of STA that passes
between these moments is zero seconds.)

4. O_A experiences zero seconds of elapsed time between the moments m1 and m2.

5. O_B and O_C's experiences of temporal passage are subjective experiences.

6. O_B and O_C's subjective experiences do not affect O_A's experience of reality.




***

Unconsciousness

Suppose consciousness does not exist. Then a scenario exists in which consciousness does not exist.(1)

I refer to a scenario in which consciousness does not exist as "unconsciousness."



Notes:

1. A "scenario" is a "situation" or a "state of affairs."

***



Adhanom Andemicael
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Re: Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by AverageBozo »

ecnetsis,

As I read them, I feel that statements S10,S11 and S12 in Part III of your claims are each lacking a necessary qualifier.

That is to say that there is a difference between objective and subjective time such that the truth value of each of the statements is dependent on which type of time is being referenced.

I trust that you have a rational rebuttal to my criticism. Please share.
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Re: Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by Terrapin Station »

ecnetsis wrote: November 22nd, 2021, 3:48 pm - The time dimension of spacetime does not pass.
Where is that part coming from? It seems to be a complete non-sequitur in the context of the argument.
ecnetsis
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Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by ecnetsis »

AverageBozo wrote: December 16th, 2021, 10:46 am ecnetsis,

As I read them, I feel that statements S10,S11 and S12 in Part III of your claims are each lacking a necessary qualifier.

That is to say that there is a difference between objective and subjective time such that the truth value of each of the statements is dependent on which type of time is being referenced.

I trust that you have a rational rebuttal to my criticism. Please share.
I don't believe that qualifiers are necessary.

Subjective time is an absolute quantity. It is not a quantity that varies depending on the reference frame.

***

Let us consider the following statements:

S13: Between m1 and m2, O_A's subjective time (STA) passes for zero seconds.
S14: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

Statement S13 is true in all frames of reference.

Statement S14 follows naturally from statement S13.



Adhanom Andemicael
ecnetsis
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Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by ecnetsis »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 16th, 2021, 11:05 am
ecnetsis wrote: November 22nd, 2021, 3:48 pm - The time dimension of spacetime does not pass.
Where is that part coming from? It seems to be a complete non-sequitur in the context of the argument.
I'm pointing out to the reader that Einstein's objective time does not pass.

This fact plays a part in my argument.


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Re: Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by Terrapin Station »

ecnetsis wrote: December 17th, 2021, 2:20 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 16th, 2021, 11:05 am
ecnetsis wrote: November 22nd, 2021, 3:48 pm - The time dimension of spacetime does not pass.
Where is that part coming from? It seems to be a complete non-sequitur in the context of the argument.
I'm pointing out to the reader that Einstein's objective time does not pass.

This fact plays a part in my argument.


Adhanom Andemicael
I understand what it's saying, but there's no argument for it. And when you just insert it like that, the argument basically winds up as question-begging. If someone doesn't agree with the premise (me, for example), then the argument completely falls apart. So you'd need to argue for that premise and not just plop it in there with no justification.
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Re: Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by AverageBozo »

ecnetsis wrote: December 17th, 2021, 1:38 pm
AverageBozo wrote: December 16th, 2021, 10:46 am ecnetsis,

As I read them, I feel that statements S10,S11 and S12 in Part III of your claims are each lacking a necessary qualifier.

That is to say that there is a difference between objective and subjective time such that the truth value of each of the statements is dependent on which type of time is being referenced.

I trust that you have a rational rebuttal to my criticism. Please share.
I don't believe that qualifiers are necessary.

Subjective time is an absolute quantity. It is not a quantity that varies depending on the reference frame.

***

Let us consider the following statements:

S13: Between m1 and m2, O_A's subjective time (STA) passes for zero seconds.
S14: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

Statement S13 is true in all frames of reference.

Statement S14 follows naturally from statement S13.



Adhanom Andemicael
I see. I was using “subjective” only to refer to something that varies from one observer to the next, but I also understand that a single observer’s subjective time does not vary.
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Re: Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by Terrapin Station »

Just noticed this post:
ecnetsis wrote: December 17th, 2021, 1:38 pm Subjective time is an absolute quantity. It is not a quantity that varies depending on the reference frame.
Neither statement there makes much sense to me. How would subjective time be an "absolute quantity" that doesn't depend on the reference frame?
S13: Between m1 and m2, O_A's subjective time (STA) passes for zero seconds.
S14: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

Statement S13 is true in all frames of reference.

Statement S14 follows naturally from statement S13.
Actually, no it doesn't. S14 assumes that a particular subjective time is all there is. If "zero seconds" in S14 is objective time, then S14 doesn't follow from S13 at all.
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Re: Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by Terrapin Station »

By the way I found your paper "Temporal Passage." In the first paragraph after I, "Consequently, there is no first moment of time in this description" is incoherent ontologically, as is "Every moment of time is preceded by an infinite number of other moments that are still closer to T-0."
ecnetsis
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Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by ecnetsis »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 18th, 2021, 4:32 pm Just noticed this post:
ecnetsis wrote: December 17th, 2021, 1:38 pm Subjective time is an absolute quantity. It is not a quantity that varies depending on the reference frame.
Neither statement there makes much sense to me. How would subjective time be an "absolute quantity" that doesn't depend on the reference frame?
S13: Between m1 and m2, O_A's subjective time (STA) passes for zero seconds.
S14: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

Statement S13 is true in all frames of reference.

Statement S14 follows naturally from statement S13.
Actually, no it doesn't. S14 assumes that a particular subjective time is all there is. If "zero seconds" in S14 is objective time, then S14 doesn't follow from S13 at all.


Let us consider the following statements:

1: Between m1 and m2, STA passes for zero seconds.
2: Between m1 and m2, O_A experiences zero seconds of elapsed subjective time.
3: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

**

4: Between m1 and m2, STB passes for 20 years.
5: Between m1 and m2, O_B experiences 20 years of elapsed subjective time.
6: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

**

7: Between m1 and m2, STC passes for 10 years.
8: Between m1 and m2, O_C experiences 10 years of elapsed subjective time.
9: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

***

Statements 1, 2, and 3 are true from O_A's perspective.

Statements 4, 5 and 6 are true from O_B's perspective.

Statements 7, 8 and 9 are true from O_C's perspective.(1)

***

Here are two more statements for us to consider:

10: O_A is unconscious for 20 years.
11: O_A is unconscious for 10 years.

***

Statement 10 is false from O_B's perspective.(2)

Statement 11 is false from O_C's perspective.(3)

***




Please note the following:

- No objective time flow exists.
- Time flow is a subjective phenomenon associated with consciousness.
- In the scenario that I describe, three subjective time flows exist: STA, STB, and STC.
- STB has nothing to say about the duration of O_A's consciousness.
- STB has nothing to say about the duration of O_A's unconsciousness.
- STC has nothing to say about the duration of O_A's consciousness.
- STC has nothing to say about the duration of O_A's unconsciousness.
- Statements 1 through 9 are true from O_A's perspective.
- Statements 1 through 9 are true from O_B's perspective.
- Statements 1 through 9 are true from O_C's perspective.




Notes:

1. All three observers claim that O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.
2. O_B has no reason to claim that O_A is unconscious for 20 years.
3. O_C has no reason to claim that O_A is unconscious for 10 years.




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ecnetsis
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Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by ecnetsis »

Terrapin Station wrote: December 18th, 2021, 4:36 pm By the way I found your paper "Temporal Passage." In the first paragraph after I, "Consequently, there is no first moment of time in this description" is incoherent ontologically, as is "Every moment of time is preceded by an infinite number of other moments that are still closer to T-0."
Time does not exist at the big bang singularity. Time exists after the big bang singularity.

(Paul Davies discusses this in his book About Time [page 187].)



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Re: Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by Terrapin Station »

ecnetsis wrote: December 19th, 2021, 7:44 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 18th, 2021, 4:36 pm By the way I found your paper "Temporal Passage." In the first paragraph after I, "Consequently, there is no first moment of time in this description" is incoherent ontologically, as is "Every moment of time is preceded by an infinite number of other moments that are still closer to T-0."
Time does not exist at the big bang singularity. Time exists after the big bang singularity.

(Paul Davies discusses this in his book About Time [page 187].)



Adhanom Andemicael
Time exists when anything changes/moves.
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Re: Time, Consciousness, and Unconsciousness

Post by Terrapin Station »

ecnetsis wrote: December 19th, 2021, 6:20 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: December 18th, 2021, 4:32 pm Just noticed this post:
ecnetsis wrote: December 17th, 2021, 1:38 pm Subjective time is an absolute quantity. It is not a quantity that varies depending on the reference frame.
Neither statement there makes much sense to me. How would subjective time be an "absolute quantity" that doesn't depend on the reference frame?
S13: Between m1 and m2, O_A's subjective time (STA) passes for zero seconds.
S14: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

Statement S13 is true in all frames of reference.

Statement S14 follows naturally from statement S13.
Actually, no it doesn't. S14 assumes that a particular subjective time is all there is. If "zero seconds" in S14 is objective time, then S14 doesn't follow from S13 at all.


Let us consider the following statements:

1: Between m1 and m2, STA passes for zero seconds.
2: Between m1 and m2, O_A experiences zero seconds of elapsed subjective time.
3: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

**

4: Between m1 and m2, STB passes for 20 years.
5: Between m1 and m2, O_B experiences 20 years of elapsed subjective time.
6: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

**

7: Between m1 and m2, STC passes for 10 years.
8: Between m1 and m2, O_C experiences 10 years of elapsed subjective time.
9: Between m1 and m2, O_A is unconscious for zero seconds.

***

Statements 1, 2, and 3 are true from O_A's perspective.

Statements 4, 5 and 6 are true from O_B's perspective.

Statements 7, 8 and 9 are true from O_C's perspective.(1)

***

Here are two more statements for us to consider:

10: O_A is unconscious for 20 years.
11: O_A is unconscious for 10 years.

***

Statement 10 is false from O_B's perspective.(2)

Statement 11 is false from O_C's perspective.(3)

***
Huh???

First off, you'd not experience "zero seconds." That makes no sense. The mere fact that something is changing or moving is time occurring. You can't experience anything if there is no change/motion.

Secondly, O_B and 0_C are measuring 10 versus 20 years how, exactly?

Third, if from O_B and O_C's perspective, O_A is "unconscious for zero seconds" that means that we're saying that from those perspectives, O_A isn't unconscious, right?
- No objective time flow exists.
If the above is supposed to demonstrate this somehow, it doesn't at all. I suppose you're just stipulating this here, but I don't at all agree with it, and it would need to be supported.
- Time flow is a subjective phenomenon associated with consciousness.
There is a subjective impression of time flow (though not 10-20 years, which is why I asked how they're measuring this above), but that doesn't exhaust what time is. It's just like there would be a subjective impression of what the moon looks like, but the moon isn't (merely) a mental phenomenon.
- In the scenario that I describe, three subjective time flows exist: STA, STB, and STC.
In the scenario you describe, there is no subjective time flow re STA.
- STB has nothing to say about the duration of O_A's consciousness.
- STB has nothing to say about the duration of O_A's unconsciousness.
??? Why not? You said something above about this, but it amounted to STB saying that O_A was never unconscious. Same with STC.
- Statements 1 through 9 are true from O_A's perspective.
- Statements 1 through 9 are true from O_B's perspective.
- Statements 1 through 9 are true from O_C's perspective.
???? Huh? Per what?

A lot of this is rather befuddling. It seems as if you're approaching Time Cube territory.
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