What Makes Philosophy Interesting and Important in Life?

[stevie]

@stevie
The internal world of experiences and its expression by verbal means is a central aspect of human experiences, but it is important to think about what lies behind it.

Why should it be important? I acknowledge that you consider it to be important but why should I share your view? Your position seems to be based on the view that there can be something objectively grasped but whats the basis of that view?

How much is emotion, or sensation, as part of meaning and how does it come into play in philosophy? In another way, it could be asked how does the basic raw material of sensations become translated into emotions and ideas, especially in the development of philosophy? Why did human beings begin to develop philosophicalI ideas and how was this related to the internal experience of emotions? This may be where it gets complicated because human experiences give rise to sensations in the body which are related to ideas and concepts, especially in social life. It could be asked where did reflective consciousness come into this process?

How could subjectivity develop into "philosophy"?

I wonder how philosophy developed in it's own right and whether it was related to the internalised sense of social meanings, or whether logic is central to thought intrinsically. In other words, philosophy could be seen as a way of meaning underlying evolutionary biology or as independent category of metaphysics. The experience and naming through descriptions is so central to human experience that it may even be irrelevant to consider whether it is a pure evolutionary construct of meaning. But, it is also possible to ask where does meaning originate in the first place, because this may have been an aspect of reflective consciousness, prior to the birth of any philosophical thinking.

There are certainly many ways of approaching subjective expressions. But that should not downplay the potential benefits derived from philosopical expressions.

[JackDaydream]

@stevie
I have been thinking about your question of how subjectivity develops into philosophy and, perhaps, some people construct more clear philosophical ideas than others. Some are much more reflective than others, and this probably comes into it because philosophy does involve a certain amount of reflection. It does involve being alone with oneself and I often think that the reason why I developed such an interest in philosophy was as an only child I spent a lot of time by myself early on. Many people are so caught up in a social whirlpool that they do not ask questions about life so much, and I am not sure that their lives are necessarily the worse for that. But, some individuals seem to be more inclined to develop a contemplative approach to life, which may be connected to philosophy. I know some people who just like to be busy doing tasks or activities whereas I can spend time happily just thinking.

[JackDaydream]

@Sy Borg
The nature of competition in ideas is interesting because it may be connected to self worth. Many people are competing in 'battle for hearts and minds' through religious or scientific development of ideas. I have realised that I am competitive recently because I get annoyed if others' posts are getting more replies than mine. This is, of course, an ego concern but it probably goes deeper as well. In particular, I know that the reason why I wish for my threads to be successful is because I don't have a job currently and I have low self esteem.

So, it may be that philosophies, science or religion are bound up with defense mechanisms and with finding purpose in life. These also have important social elements, and the expression of ideas has such a large part in the establishment of personal identity.

[JackDaydream]

@chewybrian
Your idea of philosophy being involving a choice 'not to feel this great sadness' does point to the way in which development of ideas is so important as an approach to life. I am not sure that I have always found that philosophy takes me away from sadness necessarily but may enable me to live with it more easily.

I do see philosophy as being a search for truth but I often think that if I suddenly found a 'truth' which was not what I wished would I try and fight against it. So, I am aware that I spend a lot of time reading and thinking about finding truth but I am also aware that I want to find truth on my own terms and in a way which enables me to cope and live a fulfilling and meaningful life.

[Pattern-chaser]

[O]n this forum everyone has chosen to join, so I am interested to know what it is that lead you to become interested in philosophy.

I didn't become interested in philosophy. I recognised that I was interested in serious, considered, thought, and that the name/label applied to this interest is "philosophy". My "interest" was discovered, not adopted. YMMV.

[Pattern-chaser]

One thing which I wonder about is whether there is any place for those who have 'deflated' as opposed to 'inflated' egos within philosophy. There have been so many people proclaiming ideas of knowledge and truth, but whether humble beings, who express uncertainty and unknowing are considered of any importance, or will be thrown into the dustbin, and possibly not even the one for recycling.

It is nearly always the case that the self-publicisers, who shout the loudest, and that way gain attention, are not the one who are most worth listening to.

[JackDaydream]

@Pattern-chaser
Definitely the people who 'shout the loudest' are the ones usually not worth listening to. Sometimes, it can involve so much searching to find the people who are quiet but have such interesting gems of wisdom...

[Pattern-chaser]

I do see philosophy as being a search for truth...

Indeed. A truth that, once discovered, can be imported into real life, there to be used and applied. Surely this latter sentiment is the heart of it all?

[JackDaydream]

@Pattern-chaser
I probably also realised that I was interested in thought rather than in 'philosophy' itself too. I can't remember when I first came across the word philosophy. I just know that I can remember by about the age of 12 I had discovered that section in libraries. I often used to go into a local library on my way home from school and go home really late. But it was when I was about 16 that I started talking about my interest in philosophy rather than it being a closet secret. I just wish that it had been part of the school curriculum because I have met people who did study it at school.

[Sy Borg]

@Sy Borg
The nature of competition in ideas is interesting because it may be connected to self worth. Many people are competing in 'battle for hearts and minds' through religious or scientific development of ideas. I have realised that I am competitive recently because I get annoyed if others' posts are getting more replies than mine.

You get used to it. Populist and poorly conceived ideas often attract the most attention. Consider the news and music that sell the most. Is that a reflection of quality? My musical partner and I recently finished an album of instrumental music. It's art for art's sake because people today are less interested in what I think of as "impractical music". Practical music has social or commercial utility - music for romance, dancing, parties, meditation, soundtracks, shopping malls and so on.

So it goes with ideas. If you want a strong response, slam or wax lyrical about any major figure, party, organisation etc in American politics, which is the flavour of the decade. If you want to stay sane, however, you will not :)

This is, of course, an ego concern but it probably goes deeper as well. In particular, I know that the reason why I wish for my threads to be successful is because I don't have a job currently and I have low self esteem.

So, it may be that philosophies, science or religion are bound up with defense mechanisms and with finding purpose in life. These also have important social elements, and the expression of ideas has such a large part in the establishment of personal identity.

Jack, sorry to hear about your situation. Being knocked back over and over again is hard. However, employability depends on many factors - location, family and personal networks, random events and more subtle issues, like being a natural generalist when industry is crying out for more expert specialists.

Personally, I don't know why I think so much. Maybe PTSD, or FOMO, or simply childish curiosity. In terms of personal growth, Marcus Aurelius covers my bases. Stoicism is a calming and grounding philosophical school IMO and one doesn't need to delve into it to an academic level to derive benefits (or at least I didn't). Memento mori. Amor fati. You have power over your mind, not outside events. And so on.

[JackDaydream]

@Sy Borg

I have a copy of Marcus Aurelius' writings but haven't read it, so I might give it a try over the weekend, because I probably need a bit of grounding. I love reading and try to use this time I have at the moment for that purpose.

I like the expression 'impractical music' and I am not sure if you would consider the music which I listen to as practical or not, because I love alternative music ranging from indie to goth and psychedelic. I can remember a time when I really cared whether the bands I liked were in the charts. I rarely pay any attention to the charts at all nowadays. When I have listened to singles in the charts in the last few years I have mostly been disappointed.

I am sure that some of the popular ideas and writings in philosophy are rather disappointing too. I prefer looking for books in charity shops than in the mainstream ones because there are more unusual books. I even got one today, called 'Diving in the Inner Ocean', by Dominic Liber. I had never heard of it. Really, I like esoteric ideas, which in many ways is almost the opposite to popular, but they do have an audience who are attracted to them. Someone once said to me that philosophy is esoteric in its own right and I can see what he meant.

[chewybrian]

@chewybrian
Your idea of philosophy being involving a choice 'not to feel this great sadness' does point to the way in which development of ideas is so important as an approach to life. I am not sure that I have always found that philosophy takes me away from sadness necessarily but may enable me to live with it more easily.

I do see philosophy as being a search for truth but I often think that if I suddenly found a 'truth' which was not what I wished would I try and fight against it. So, I am aware that I spend a lot of time reading and thinking about finding truth but I am also aware that I want to find truth on my own terms and in a way which enables me to cope and live a fulfilling and meaningful life.

It is important to separate what seems to be evident truth from your opinion about such truth. The truth is what it is, and maybe you have it exactly right, but often you don't. But your opinion is only loosely based on reality and easily altered to make things better if you work on it.

Am I poor? On what basis do I make this decision? I am less wealthy than most of the folks in my immediate neighborhood. Yet, I am smack in the middle when compared with my county or state, a bit above average compared to the entire country, well above average when set against the world, and all the way in the top 1% when compared to all the people who ever lived. From the perspective of my ancestors from a thousand years ago, I live like a king. Why shouldn't I be grateful for this instead of jealous of someone else who has a bit more than me, when I need nothing that they have?

You never get to decide what happens in the world outside your mind, but you always get to decide your reaction to it. Guess which one has a greater impact on your state of mind?

What then should a man have in readiness in such circumstances? What else than "What is mine, and what is not mine; and permitted to me, and what is not permitted to me." I must die. Must I then die lamenting? I must be put in chains. Must I then also lament? I must go into exile. Does any man then hinder me from going with smiles and cheerfulness and contentment? "Tell me the secret which you possess." I will not, for this is in my power. "But I will put you in chains." Man, what are you talking about? Me in chains? You may fetter my leg, but my will not even Zeus himself can overpower. "I will throw you into prison." My poor body, you mean. "I will cut your head off." When, then, have I told you that my head alone cannot be cut off? These are the things which philosophers should meditate on, which they should write daily, in which they should exercise themselves. , Epictetus, "The Discourses"

[JackDaydream]

@chewybrian

I guess that the benefit of engaging in philosophy is about being able to align one's own opinions with 'truth' as far as possible. Over the last year of engaging on another forum and this one, I have become aware how my previous thinking on many philosophical issues had been so hazy. That was because I just used to read books and not discuss the ideas with anyone. I am not saying that I have now found 'truth' but I feel that I have at least worked out some of the contradictions in my own thinking.

I think that you are correct to focus on being grateful and I do try to do this as much as possible. At times, I have struggled with feelings of jealousy, not about material wealth, but people who seem to have an easier life than mine. However, I am sure that each of us has individual lessons to learn. The idea of being able to choose our reaction to events in our lives is very important and I do try to be mindful of this. However, it is not always that easy and I can think how badly I have reacted to some events in my life by becoming low in mood. I try to prevent this happening as far as possible by being proactive in finding coping strategies. I would like to think that I am able to cope with adverse events, but it is sometimes hard to predict one's own reactions. Probably, the more in touch one is with one's own inner world is important, in order to have some clarity about it, helps. I am sure that reading the philosophers, like Epictetus, can be useful because it is important to be able to draw inspiration from great minds. In many ways, good authors can seem like close friends.

[Sy Borg]

@Sy Borg

I have a copy of Marcus Aurelius' writings but haven't read it, so I might give it a try over the weekend, because I probably need a bit of grounding. I love reading and try to use this time I have at the moment for that purpose.

I like the expression 'impractical music' and I am not sure if you would consider the music which I listen to as practical or not, because I love alternative music ranging from indie to goth and psychedelic. I can remember a time when I really cared whether the bands I liked were in the charts. I rarely pay any attention to the charts at all nowadays. When I have listened to singles in the charts in the last few years I have mostly been disappointed.

I am sure that some of the popular ideas and writings in philosophy are rather disappointing too. I prefer looking for books in charity shops than in the mainstream ones because there are more unusual books. I even got one today, called 'Diving in the Inner Ocean', by Dominic Liber. I had never heard of it. Really, I like esoteric ideas, which in many ways is almost the opposite to popular, but they do have an audience who are attracted to them. Someone once said to me that philosophy is esoteric in its own right and I can see what he meant.

His main work, Meditations, is a tough read (for me). Summaries give a fair idea of his ideas without struggling through "oldese": https://growth.me/books/meditations/

When you say you love indie, goth and psychedelic music, what is its utility in your life? Does it act as a social lubricant? Do you have it playing as background as you do other things? Do you become deeply absorbed at gigs or lie down at home and just listen? (Asking out of curiosity). I'm assuming those styles won't be acting as a conduit for sex or dancing (aside from shaking one's head to psychedelic rock :)

I understand your enjoyment of the esoteric. Last century I read a lot of Colin Wilson, Ouspensky, Hesse and Paramahansa Yogananda. These days I tend towards more thinkers who treat the questioning of their ideas as an ongoing project rather than something to be done once and resolved.

[JackDaydream]

@Sy Borg

My own appreciation of music is more about inner experience and is definitely not as a 'social lubricant'. I often lie down and close my eyes and sometimes I see imagery when listening to it. I have some experiences of synthasaesia and I can particular remember this happening when listening to the music of The Fall and The Inspiral Carpets. I like to be able to draw upon such images in making art or in writing fiction, although I have not done much of this in the last 2 to 3 years because I had too much stress. Apart from losing my job, my mother was ill and died about 7 and a half weeks ago. But, now I am wishing to find a creative pathway in life.

I am glad to hear that you have read Colin Wilson because he was one of the writers who has influenced me the most, especially his book, 'The Outsider'. Reading this was such a turning point and it was this book which lead me towards others, such as Nietzsche. What I like so much about Colin Wilson is his own exploration of creativity and the associated mental states involved in the process. Earlier this year, I read his final book 'Super Consciousness' and this focuses on peak experiences. Although these cannot just be gained at will, I do see these as being extremely important. Even though philosophy is about explanations, heightened states of consciousness are part of a quest for truth which may run parallel to it.