The Invisible Gardener

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WanderingGaze22
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The Invisible Gardener

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

Two people return to their long neglected garden. Although the garden has grown wild, there are still many flowers blooming. One of them says, “There must be a gardener at work here.” The other replies, “I don’t think so.” To see who is right, they examine the garden carefully and ask the neighbors, who have never seen anyone at work. They also research what happens to gardens that are left without care. “You see,” says the skeptic, “there is no gardener.” The believer replies, “This gardener is invisible, and if we look more carefully we will find evidence that he comes, unseen and unheard.” The other one maintains there is no gardener. Can this dispute be settled? This is similar to the tree falling in the forest thought experiment.
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LuckyR
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Re: The Invisible Gardener

Post by LuckyR »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: January 2nd, 2022, 3:58 am Two people return to their long neglected garden. Although the garden has grown wild, there are still many flowers blooming. One of them says, “There must be a gardener at work here.” The other replies, “I don’t think so.” To see who is right, they examine the garden carefully and ask the neighbors, who have never seen anyone at work. They also research what happens to gardens that are left without care. “You see,” says the skeptic, “there is no gardener.” The believer replies, “This gardener is invisible, and if we look more carefully we will find evidence that he comes, unseen and unheard.” The other one maintains there is no gardener. Can this dispute be settled? This is similar to the tree falling in the forest thought experiment.
Oh, I thought it was referencing the Intelligent Design argument, also known as the watchmaker.
"As usual... it depends."
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Count Lucanor
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Re: The Invisible Gardener

Post by Count Lucanor »

To settle a dispute between two parties, there must be some shared beliefs that constitute the basis for the settlement. For example, if both parties are willing to accept that there can be invisible agents, this would allow them to explore whether this condition, which will have potential explanatory power, is actually the cause of a given event or not. In other words, you need to have a set of beliefs not in dispute, to settle those in dispute.

If the dispute is to be settled beyond two parties, things get a lot more complicated, as the pools of shared and unshared beliefs are expanded, and particular beliefs will not intersect with others often.
The wise are instructed by reason, average minds by experience, the stupid by necessity and the brute by instinct.
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chewybrian
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Re: The Invisible Gardener

Post by chewybrian »

LuckyR wrote: January 2nd, 2022, 5:04 am
WanderingGaze22 wrote: January 2nd, 2022, 3:58 am Two people return to their long neglected garden. Although the garden has grown wild, there are still many flowers blooming. One of them says, “There must be a gardener at work here.” The other replies, “I don’t think so.” To see who is right, they examine the garden carefully and ask the neighbors, who have never seen anyone at work. They also research what happens to gardens that are left without care. “You see,” says the skeptic, “there is no gardener.” The believer replies, “This gardener is invisible, and if we look more carefully we will find evidence that he comes, unseen and unheard.” The other one maintains there is no gardener. Can this dispute be settled? This is similar to the tree falling in the forest thought experiment.
Oh, I thought it was referencing the Intelligent Design argument, also known as the watchmaker.
Neither seems like a perfect match. The falling tree in the forest problem presumes the event happened, but asks if the nature of the event is the same whether it is observed or not. The watchmaker doesn't ask if the maker came back to wind the watch, for example, but only if the intricacy of the design shows that someone must have made it, rather than it randomly evolving.

I'll muddle it up further and say this is similar to the china teapot problem posed by Bertrand Russell. There could be a china teapot floating on the opposite side of the sun where we could not see it. We can not disprove the notion, but it seems a bit silly. Neither can we disprove the notion that someone snuck in to the garden and took care of things in such a way that we were unable to know for sure if they had been there or not. We can't resolve either dispute, but we can certainly pick a side with reasonable gut feelings.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Sy Borg
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Re: The Invisible Gardener

Post by Sy Borg »

WanderingGaze22 wrote: January 2nd, 2022, 3:58 am Two people return to their long neglected garden. Although the garden has grown wild, there are still many flowers blooming. One of them says, “There must be a gardener at work here.” The other replies, “I don’t think so.” To see who is right, they examine the garden carefully and ask the neighbors, who have never seen anyone at work. They also research what happens to gardens that are left without care. “You see,” says the skeptic, “there is no gardener.” The believer replies, “This gardener is invisible, and if we look more carefully we will find evidence that he comes, unseen and unheard.” The other one maintains there is no gardener. Can this dispute be settled? This is similar to the tree falling in the forest thought experiment.
The solve the question, bring in an expert gardener familiar with local conditions to assess it. If there were always weeds in the garden and now it's weed-free. If there are almost no weeds, just mulch, then it's a gardener. If there are still weeds but larger plant systems have simply out-competed them (ie. relative order in a world with many flaws), then it's probably not a gardener.

- High order = gardener
- High disorder = probably no gardener, but not certainly (the gardener might be sloppy or missed a few visits)
- Moderate order = maybe either, with more order suggesting a gardener and more disorder suggesting neglect, but neither may be conclusively proved from just inspection, as per Brian's Chinese teapot example above.
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LuckyR
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Re: The Invisible Gardener

Post by LuckyR »

Sy Borg wrote: January 2nd, 2022, 8:34 pm
WanderingGaze22 wrote: January 2nd, 2022, 3:58 am Two people return to their long neglected garden. Although the garden has grown wild, there are still many flowers blooming. One of them says, “There must be a gardener at work here.” The other replies, “I don’t think so.” To see who is right, they examine the garden carefully and ask the neighbors, who have never seen anyone at work. They also research what happens to gardens that are left without care. “You see,” says the skeptic, “there is no gardener.” The believer replies, “This gardener is invisible, and if we look more carefully we will find evidence that he comes, unseen and unheard.” The other one maintains there is no gardener. Can this dispute be settled? This is similar to the tree falling in the forest thought experiment.
The solve the question, bring in an expert gardener familiar with local conditions to assess it. If there were always weeds in the garden and now it's weed-free. If there are almost no weeds, just mulch, then it's a gardener. If there are still weeds but larger plant systems have simply out-competed them (ie. relative order in a world with many flaws), then it's probably not a gardener.

- High order = gardener
- High disorder = probably no gardener, but not certainly (the gardener might be sloppy or missed a few visits)
- Moderate order = maybe either, with more order suggesting a gardener and more disorder suggesting neglect, but neither may be conclusively proved from just inspection, as per Brian's Chinese teapot example above.
The problem is that it is possible to arrive at a resultant state (disorganized garden with a few flowers) from many possible routes, thus one cannot be certain of the actual pathway. It would be common in a complex system to have conflicting "evidence" for and against the gardener and the absent gardener arguments.
"As usual... it depends."
WanderingGaze22
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Re: The Invisible Gardener

Post by WanderingGaze22 »

Sy Borg wrote: January 2nd, 2022, 8:34 pm The solve the question, bring in an expert gardener familiar with local conditions to assess it. If there were always weeds in the garden and now it's weed-free. If there are almost no weeds, just mulch, then it's a gardener. If there are still weeds but larger plant systems have simply out-competed them (ie. relative order in a world with many flaws), then it's probably not a gardener.

- High order = gardener
- High disorder = probably no gardener, but not certainly (the gardener might be sloppy or missed a few visits)
- Moderate order = maybe either, with more order suggesting a gardener and more disorder suggesting neglect, but neither may be conclusively proved from just inspection, as per Brian's Chinese teapot example above.
That answer seems very likely.
Alan Masterman
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Re: The Invisible Gardener

Post by Alan Masterman »

The dispute cannot be resolved because the believer in metaphysical or non-rational causes will always find a way to diss any rational explanation. Or any explanation arising from a rival metaphysical system. That's why we have religious wars. That's why we have election-defeat denial. That's why we have Trump.
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