How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Sculptor1 wrote: January 11th, 2022, 6:03 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 10th, 2022, 1:39 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: January 10th, 2022, 8:41 am That's interesting. I'm not very familiar with aphantasia. It's difficult for me to imagine what that would be like.

Do people with aphantasia have trouble with directions/orienteering? (As in, is it easy for them to get lost/to not be able to find their way if spatially disoriented?)
It seems to me like spatial maneuvering is very dependent on being able to imagine and mentally retain visual relationships.
It's not visual relationships that are the issue, it's our memory (if any!) of visual images.
According to wiki aphantasia is a lack of the ability to voluntarily visualise images. It was not invoveld with memory per se..
Ah, thanks. I missed that. That's an interesting nuance, that it would only be an issue of "willed" or voluntary visualization, but that more or less autonomic visualization wouldn't be affected.
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 11th, 2022, 7:00 am
Sculptor1 wrote: January 11th, 2022, 6:03 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: January 10th, 2022, 1:39 pm
Terrapin Station wrote: January 10th, 2022, 8:41 am That's interesting. I'm not very familiar with aphantasia. It's difficult for me to imagine what that would be like.

Do people with aphantasia have trouble with directions/orienteering? (As in, is it easy for them to get lost/to not be able to find their way if spatially disoriented?)
It seems to me like spatial maneuvering is very dependent on being able to imagine and mentally retain visual relationships.
It's not visual relationships that are the issue, it's our memory (if any!) of visual images.
According to wiki aphantasia is a lack of the ability to voluntarily visualise images. It was not invoveld with memory per se..
Ah, thanks. I missed that. That's an interesting nuance, that it would only be an issue of "willed" or voluntary visualization, but that more or less autonomic visualization wouldn't be affected.
Yes, it specifically mentions visual dreams as being enjoyed by those with aphantasia.
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sculptor1 wrote: January 11th, 2022, 6:03 am According to wiki aphantasia is a lack of the ability to voluntarily visualise images. It was not invoveld with memory per se..
Aphantasia is a recently recognised, and defined, condition. There are a number of similar conditions, including so-called 'face blindness'.
aphantasia.com wrote: Aphantasia is the inability to visualize. Otherwise known as image-free imagination.
See What is aphantasia? for more information.
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Sculptor1 »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 11th, 2022, 8:06 am
Sculptor1 wrote: January 11th, 2022, 6:03 am According to wiki aphantasia is a lack of the ability to voluntarily visualise images. It was not invoveld with memory per se..
Aphantasia is a recently recognised, and defined, condition. There are a number of similar conditions, including so-called 'face blindness'.
As I said above APhantasia was first noted by Francis Galton.
A lack of face recognition is completely different. That is called Prosopagnosia and is closely related to a specific area of the brain specialised to sort faces. Those who suffer from that cannot tell the difference between their own father and Adolf Hitler.
aphantasia wrote: Aphantasia is the inability to visualize. Otherwise known as image-free imagination.
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Atla »

There is no autonomic visualization either. Or maybe there might be some, but in that case it's impossible for us to detect it, like somehow it would always linger outside of our conscious awareness.

Most people with aphantasia still dream in images however, that's what the Wiki mentions, currently it is usually thought that they are able to visualize when dreaming.

I'll have to disagree with this idea though
Atla wrote:I do often still dream in imagery however, and for a long time I thought that maybe it's just my conscious awake mind that can't visualize. I sometimes even have lucid dreams with imagery.

There is another idea however, claiming that we aren't actually visualizing when dreaming, instead it's presented/processed more or less the same way as waking reality is. When awake, our mind is being fed outside-world input, and when we dreaming, it's being fed input from the inside. But it's not the mind's eye that is "watching".

All things considered, now I think I clearly lean towards this latter idea, and that may tell something about what dreams are.
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Atla wrote: January 11th, 2022, 12:11 pm There is no autonomic visualization either. Or maybe there might be some, but in that case it's impossible for us to detect it, like somehow it would always linger outside of our conscious awareness.

Most people with aphantasia still dream in images however, that's what the Wiki mentions, currently it is usually thought that they are able to visualize when dreaming.

I'll have to disagree with this idea though
Atla wrote:I do often still dream in imagery however, and for a long time I thought that maybe it's just my conscious awake mind that can't visualize. I sometimes even have lucid dreams with imagery.

There is another idea however, claiming that we aren't actually visualizing when dreaming, instead it's presented/processed more or less the same way as waking reality is. When awake, our mind is being fed outside-world input, and when we dreaming, it's being fed input from the inside. But it's not the mind's eye that is "watching".

All things considered, now I think I clearly lean towards this latter idea, and that may tell something about what dreams are.
So is spatial navigation difficult for you? It seems like it would be a challenge without being able to visualize where you're going to go (and remember where you've been in terms of spatial orientation, etc.)
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Sy Borg »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 11th, 2022, 7:00 pm
Atla wrote: January 11th, 2022, 12:11 pm There is no autonomic visualization either. Or maybe there might be some, but in that case it's impossible for us to detect it, like somehow it would always linger outside of our conscious awareness.

Most people with aphantasia still dream in images however, that's what the Wiki mentions, currently it is usually thought that they are able to visualize when dreaming.

I'll have to disagree with this idea though
Atla wrote:I do often still dream in imagery however, and for a long time I thought that maybe it's just my conscious awake mind that can't visualize. I sometimes even have lucid dreams with imagery.

There is another idea however, claiming that we aren't actually visualizing when dreaming, instead it's presented/processed more or less the same way as waking reality is. When awake, our mind is being fed outside-world input, and when we dreaming, it's being fed input from the inside. But it's not the mind's eye that is "watching".

All things considered, now I think I clearly lean towards this latter idea, and that may tell something about what dreams are.
So is spatial navigation difficult for you? It seems like it would be a challenge without being able to visualize where you're going to go (and remember where you've been in terms of spatial orientation, etc.)
My inability to navigate has long been a source of amusement amongst my friends. I am largely mentally "blind". My thoughts are not visual, but they arrive in spoken words or vague sensations or emotions. Thus, sometimes I catch myself typing wrong words that rhyme with the one I intended.

Aside from navigation (which is a significant limiter) I'd never thought of my non-visual, audio/conceptual thoughts as a problem, just a characteristic that relates to one's learning style. That may be why I find visual charts and graphs so strongly illuminating(?). Maybe they fill the gap, allowing for a more complete overview of a situation?
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Atla »

Terrapin Station wrote: January 11th, 2022, 7:00 pm
Atla wrote: January 11th, 2022, 12:11 pm There is no autonomic visualization either. Or maybe there might be some, but in that case it's impossible for us to detect it, like somehow it would always linger outside of our conscious awareness.

Most people with aphantasia still dream in images however, that's what the Wiki mentions, currently it is usually thought that they are able to visualize when dreaming.

I'll have to disagree with this idea though
Atla wrote:I do often still dream in imagery however, and for a long time I thought that maybe it's just my conscious awake mind that can't visualize. I sometimes even have lucid dreams with imagery.

There is another idea however, claiming that we aren't actually visualizing when dreaming, instead it's presented/processed more or less the same way as waking reality is. When awake, our mind is being fed outside-world input, and when we dreaming, it's being fed input from the inside. But it's not the mind's eye that is "watching".

All things considered, now I think I clearly lean towards this latter idea, and that may tell something about what dreams are.
So is spatial navigation difficult for you? It seems like it would be a challenge without being able to visualize where you're going to go (and remember where you've been in terms of spatial orientation, etc.)
I'm average at spatial navigation, the images are missing but my mind tries to compensate with abstract impressions and abstract impression memories, or something like that.
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Atla »

Although it's probably more complicated than that, my guess is that visualization requires the interplay of several brain/mind mechanisms and people with aphantasia may be lacking some of those mechanisms and steps, but probably not all. So we might still be able to use some precursor mechanisms, but we don't make it to the end product, the mental image.
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sy Borg wrote: January 11th, 2022, 7:12 pm My inability to navigate has long been a source of amusement amongst my friends.
Yes, me too. 😐 I can learn my way to/from places, but it takes many repetitions of the same journey - by exactly the same route - before I can do it. And if I don't do that journey for a few months, I start to lose the 'memory' of it.

Happily, I have an Irish woman in my car, imprisoned in a small plastic box. She knows the way to just about everywhere. 😉
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Terrapin Station »

Interesting. Thanks for the answers above.
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Sy Borg »

Pattern-chaser wrote: January 12th, 2022, 11:06 am
Sy Borg wrote: January 11th, 2022, 7:12 pm My inability to navigate has long been a source of amusement amongst my friends.
Yes, me too. 😐 I can learn my way to/from places, but it takes many repetitions of the same journey - by exactly the same route - before I can do it. And if I don't do that journey for a few months, I start to lose the 'memory' of it.

Happily, I have an Irish woman in my car, imprisoned in a small plastic box. She knows the way to just about everywhere. 😉
Yes, I lose memory of directions very quickly.

I have trouble with GPS's for some reason, probably because my attention is not constant but operates like a rapid wave, blinking in and out, which can be an issue on the road when you don't know where you are and you are surrounded by truck-sized cars that obscure vision in all directions. So, most times, I use Uber rather than drive.

That Irish woman sounds like something out of Black Mirror :)
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Re: How would it impact your life if you would lose your mind's eye?

Post by Rende »

Hello today i tried to walk as posible outside with closed eyes. And when i stoped i asked myself if i know where i stand if i would see i would imaginate where i will stand if i do the next 13m beacause i see my soroundings and i know what will follow if i move and stay some meters ahead. When i stoped with my closed eyes i didnt know nothing i completly lost orentation. Just the sense of tuch and voice and smell. And than i wondered because i came across some article about experimenst with born blind humans if they recognize two diferent objects only by seeing if they regain sight. And i wondered if you are blind born if you can dream pictures i supose not. i thing is intresting.
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