The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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JackDaydream
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The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by JackDaydream »

I am hoping that my question is not too vague or big to discuss. At the moment, I am reading 'Science and Religion', by Thomas Dixon, because I do struggle with the relationship between science and religion, but also think that there is a political dimension to this.

The writing of Dixon has lead me to think more about the way in which the political aspects of knowledge come into play. He says, 'Among historians of science and religion there have been two interesting different kinds of attack on the "conflict between by Enlightenment rationalists, Victorian freethinkers and modern-day atheists...Some scientists have been religious, others atheists'. He also speaks of national and historical differences, suggesting, 'The opposition of science versus religion is then seen to be standing proxy for some classic modern political conflicts: the individual versus the state, or secular liberalism versus conservatise traditions'

I hope that this thread discussion will not be a headache for anyone who reads it. Really, I am simply trying to make some interesting debate about the relationship between religion, science and politics. It seems important, especially in terms of what knowledge is transmitted culturally. In particular, certain texts were included or excluded in the Church canon. This occurred in the context of conflict between mainstream Christianity and Gnosticism in the early Christian church. Of course, I am aware that Christianity is not the only religion and I am extremely interested in the diversity of comparative religion.

I have placed this thread in the general philosophy section because it has overlapping branches. I don't really have any set agenda, and I am trying to create lively debate, not a war of ideas. Also, I am extremely interested in the relationship between religion, science and politics, so I will take part in discussion, but I do not wish to dominate and be intrusive, and I am creating this thread on the basis that the relationship between religion, science and politics is at the core of philosophy.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by LuckyR »

JackDaydream wrote: January 17th, 2022, 2:07 pm I am hoping that my question is not too vague or big to discuss. At the moment, I am reading 'Science and Religion', by Thomas Dixon, because I do struggle with the relationship between science and religion, but also think that there is a political dimension to this.

The writing of Dixon has lead me to think more about the way in which the political aspects of knowledge come into play. He says, 'Among historians of science and religion there have been two interesting different kinds of attack on the "conflict between by Enlightenment rationalists, Victorian freethinkers and modern-day atheists...Some scientists have been religious, others atheists'. He also speaks of national and historical differences, suggesting, 'The opposition of science versus religion is then seen to be standing proxy for some classic modern political conflicts: the individual versus the state, or secular liberalism versus conservatise traditions'

I hope that this thread discussion will not be a headache for anyone who reads it. Really, I am simply trying to make some interesting debate about the relationship between religion, science and politics. It seems important, especially in terms of what knowledge is transmitted culturally. In particular, certain texts were included or excluded in the Church canon. This occurred in the context of conflict between mainstream Christianity and Gnosticism in the early Christian church. Of course, I am aware that Christianity is not the only religion and I am extremely interested in the diversity of comparative religion.

I have placed this thread in the general philosophy section because it has overlapping branches. I don't really have any set agenda, and I am trying to create lively debate, not a war of ideas. Also, I am extremely interested in the relationship between religion, science and politics, so I will take part in discussion, but I do not wish to dominate and be intrusive, and I am creating this thread on the basis that the relationship between religion, science and politics is at the core of philosophy.
You have an interesting viewpoint. To my mind the three subjects are (almost) unrelated as entities. Obviously they interact within society because they coexist (separately) in it.

Politics in a democracy or representative democracy is essentially a popularity contest. True, politicians stake ethical positions but their quest for votes means that they will go against portions of their positions should it be determined that their paymasters or their core constituancy tell them to.

Religion can be a subset of politics but some describe such events as misuse of religion. More typically religions are of mostly historical interest that don't do a very good job of adapting their Iron age dogma and explanations to improvements in science and sociology.

Science, of course is every changing and so is always the best description of current understanding. Some point to individual science scandals or the fact that by definition old false trails get abandoned as weaknesses instead of the strength that it is.
"As usual... it depends."
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by JackDaydream »

@LuckyR

It seems strange to me that you see the ideas of these three perspectives as unrelated, because I guess that I do see them as interconnected. From childhood, I struggled with the clash between religion and science, trying to figure how to relate the issue of the Biblical story of creation with Darwin's theory of evolution. What made sense, was that science and religious perspectives are so different. Science is more about concrete theories whereas religion is about seeing symbolic truths. However, it can get so muddled, which is one reason why I thought that this thread was worth creating.

My initial idea was based on the question as to what extent the ideas in religion and science are in conflict or can be reconciled. However, I am also aware that both religion and science and emerge in social contexts, in which certain interests are in competing attention of power. The ideas which individuals and groups emerge in this context. So, that is why I wonder about religion, science and politics as an 'unholy trinity'. But, I don't come from a fixed perspective and I am extremely interested to know how others on the forum view the issues which are involved here.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by Gee »

JackDaydream wrote: January 17th, 2022, 3:10 pm @LuckyR

It seems strange to me that you see the ideas of these three perspectives as unrelated, because I guess that I do see them as interconnected. From childhood, I struggled with the clash between religion and science, trying to figure how to relate the issue of the Biblical story of creation with Darwin's theory of evolution. What made sense, was that science and religious perspectives are so different. Science is more about concrete theories whereas religion is about seeing symbolic truths. However, it can get so muddled, which is one reason why I thought that this thread was worth creating.

My initial idea was based on the question as to what extent the ideas in religion and science are in conflict or can be reconciled. However, I am also aware that both religion and science and emerge in social contexts, in which certain interests are in competing attention of power. The ideas which individuals and groups emerge in this context. So, that is why I wonder about religion, science and politics as an 'unholy trinity'. But, I don't come from a fixed perspective and I am extremely interested to know how others on the forum view the issues which are involved here.
This is something that I have spent a good deal of time considering. I tend to see science and religion much like I would see men and women; they are much alike, but very different; and although they will never fully understand each other, they can be very complementary to each other.

They are both disciplines that attempt to gain knowledge, but religion studies emotion and the subjective, and science studies the physical and the objective.

Because religion studies emotion, and emotion does not accept change well at all, religion tends to be dogmatic, ritualized, and unchanging. Science requires itself to constantly adapt to new information, which makes it constantly changing and it can appear to be unknowable, prohibiting it from projecting wisdom, because wisdom requires continuity.

The differences in their subject matter causes necessary differences in their methodology.

Then you have to factor in the money problem. Of the three disciplines, science, philosophy, and religion, only philosophy does not require funding. Religion requires funding for its works regarding charities, teaching, healthcare, etc. Science requires funding for research, equipment, etc. Philosophy requires only a few books, a comfortable chair, and a thinker.

I think that money causes the biggest power plays between these disciplines with regard to politics. Most people are quite willing to give their money to science so that they can life long and comfortable lives, then give their money to religion so that they can have long and comfortable after lives. 8)

Gee
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Gee

Yours is an interesting reply and I have never considered thinking about science like comparing men and women, although I am aware of the yin and yang of opposites. But, of course, it may not be a clear black and white of opposites but about complementary aspects.

The role of money as a fundamental basis of economics and power cannot be ignored. Even though some religious perspectives, such as Calvinism, have sought to promote the ethical ideal of no possessions, with a view to rewards being received in heaven, this can be a means of oppression and of allowing the status quo of economic inequality unaddressed.

Even at school, I remember once being with a couple of kids who were in the lowest banding in the school system and we had wandered into some grasslands which were 'out of bounds'. I was called into the deputy headmaster's office and told that I should stick to being with others in my own class. I saw that as being more than about ideas about the banding system in the school and about politics within the education system, in a Catholic school, with so much ambiguity of ideas and ideals. It is not that I saw any view, such as that of teachers, as mistaken, but of contradictory attitudes and ideals arising within the spectrum of philosophy and politics.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by stevie »

Religion, science and politics come together perfectly. But the answer to the question "how" would depend on the individual's cognition and cognition cannot be objectively revealed through verbal expression because the verbal expression chosen isn't categorically different from cognition.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by LuckyR »

JackDaydream wrote: January 17th, 2022, 3:10 pm @LuckyR

It seems strange to me that you see the ideas of these three perspectives as unrelated, because I guess that I do see them as interconnected. From childhood, I struggled with the clash between religion and science, trying to figure how to relate the issue of the Biblical story of creation with Darwin's theory of evolution. What made sense, was that science and religious perspectives are so different. Science is more about concrete theories whereas religion is about seeing symbolic truths. However, it can get so muddled, which is one reason why I thought that this thread was worth creating.

My initial idea was based on the question as to what extent the ideas in religion and science are in conflict or can be reconciled. However, I am also aware that both religion and science and emerge in social contexts, in which certain interests are in competing attention of power. The ideas which individuals and groups emerge in this context. So, that is why I wonder about religion, science and politics as an 'unholy trinity'. But, I don't come from a fixed perspective and I am extremely interested to know how others on the forum view the issues which are involved here.
They are related in the sense that they do try to influence (or lead) large groups of people. What I meant by their being separate and dissimilar was how they go about it. Politics has no rules except: "win!" (by any means necessary). Religion is so about rules that they can dominate the content (rules for rule's sake). Science is the opposite of religion in that the understanding is constantly changing therefore there is little factual value in science's past history. Tomorrow's science will be better/more nuanced than today's.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by Gee »

JackDaydream wrote: January 17th, 2022, 5:37 pm @Gee

Yours is an interesting reply and I have never considered thinking about science like comparing men and women, although I am aware of the yin and yang of opposites. But, of course, it may not be a clear black and white of opposites but about complementary aspects.


There is a lot more that is complementary between religion and science than most people realize, as it is not often discussed. One example might be Darwin's theory of evolution. Years ago, I read an account that questioned whether or not the Bible influenced his ideas about evolution because it had life starting with the heavens, earth, plants, fish, animals, and then us, so did his understanding of the Bible influence this order, or not?

Then there is the Garden of Eden story. Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, although they were not supposed to, and this caused Original Sin. We know from science, psychology, that knowledge and the ability to choose knowledge is a product of the rational aspect of mind -- this also defines humans. So when we chose knowledge, we proved that we had advanced to a species that had a rational aspect of mind, which allowed us to hate, harm, or murder someone because of some knowledge that we had about that person, rather than a simple instinctive reaction. Our ability to choose knowledge means that we have intentionality, so we can sin. A volcano can also kill, but it does not do it intentionally. Science helps to validate the wisdom in this story.

For thousands of years religions all over the world have created rituals, rites, and sacraments to celebrate the hormonal changes in people from coming of the age of reason, puberty, marriage, giving birth, crones and elders, to death, although no one had any idea of what hormones actually were or how they affected us until quite recently. Again science validated what religion has been doing.
JackDaydream wrote: January 17th, 2022, 5:37 pm The role of money as a fundamental basis of economics and power cannot be ignored. Even though some religious perspectives, such as Calvinism, have sought to promote the ethical ideal of no possessions, with a view to rewards being received in heaven, this can be a means of oppression and of allowing the status quo of economic inequality unaddressed.
So are you saying that in Calvinism, there are no priests/preachers to be supported? No churches or buildings to purchase and maintain? No books or paperwork? No charities for the members? If so, then it is possible that the ideal of no possessions is valid.
JackDaydream wrote: January 17th, 2022, 5:37 pm Even at school, I remember once being with a couple of kids who were in the lowest banding in the school system and we had wandered into some grasslands which were 'out of bounds'. I was called into the deputy headmaster's office and told that I should stick to being with others in my own class. I saw that as being more than about ideas about the banding system in the school and about politics within the education system, in a Catholic school, with so much ambiguity of ideas and ideals. It is not that I saw any view, such as that of teachers, as mistaken, but of contradictory attitudes and ideals arising within the spectrum of philosophy and politics.
Hierarchies are every where.

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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

It does seem likely that ideas of religion, science and politics come together in different ways for different people conceptually. It may go back to childhood socialisation and how people are taught to think about them.That may be the specific emphasis or value based on them, even if that is questioned or revised later.

Personally, I was brought up with religious ideas as being central. Also, I was taught left wing views but not as extreme ones. I saw religious ideas and some political ideas as linked, through ideas such as CND and protest music. When I first went to university I was attending Christian Union and Marxist meetings, but aware the two didn't really work together exactly. It was some time shortly after this that I really began to question all my beliefs.

It does seem that people have different ways of thinking about the relationships. It is possible to be a Christian left or right wing person and there is the movement of liberation theology. However, philosophy includes ideas about whether or not there is God, life after death, as well as ideas about science and political values. So, in that sense philosophy is the master of such thinking. As all of these areas are central to life, I am surprised that most people are not that interested in philosophy. On some level, it is likely that most people do wonder about all these areas at some point in their lives, but some people more than others.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by JackDaydream »

@LuckyR

I guess that there are probably a lot of rules within religious fundamentalism especially, and I can remember when I was a student that some extremely religious people used to tell me that the rock music I liked was the devil's music. Another main area of rules is over gay issues and sexuality in general. I am sure that there are a lot of rules in Islam and of course, there is so much political struggle around Islam vs Christianity, and even race comes into it.

However, there is a level of community support within churches. There is probably some group affinity within politics. I am not sure if there is within science but there is probably some academic group affiliation. The main thing is that it is religion and politics which play such a role behind the organisation of social life, historically. It was in the context of science that religion began to play a less powerful role. But, there are probably also links still existing behind the scenes based on movements linked to religious bodies, like the Freemasons but it is hard to know how much power such organisations have.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Gee

Definitely it seems that religion and science can be complementary in many ways. My understanding is that Darwin was not an atheist at all. It does surprise me how so many people seem to think that the idea of evolution and atheism must go together. When I was a child and first heard a teacher, who said he was an atheist, speaking of the theory of evolution I was horrified because I had been taught the story of creation by my family and at church. However, as a teenager, when I was at a Catholic school, I found that the teachers there were in support of the idea of evolution or trying to think how to interpret it. I found an English teacher helpful as he pointed to the way in which the Book of Genesis is so different from the way in which science or newspapers are written. It is based on oral traditions and folklore which was passed down. It is not as if the writers of it witnessed the 7 days of creation or the actual Adam and Eve.

So much of the difference between science and religion is on a symbolic level, even though many religious believers do take ideas concretely. One of the major aspects is the idea of miracles and the supernatural. There was a deep split between the early Church and Gnostic ideas, and this was linked to the political aspects of the church. The finding of the Gnostic gospels does represent a very different perspective on the life of Christ, especially in the raising of the issue of whether Mary of Magdalene was his sexual partner. Theologians recognize that the writers of the Gospels weren't really the names ones and it is probably only Paul who was the real writer. Within the development of Christianity, so much was down to the ideas and interpretations of Paul.

I don't know a great deal about the historical circumstances of Calvinism. Generally, I understand that the idea was that people should live in poverty and be rewarded in the afterlife. In Christianity as a whole there was often a big division between the wealth of the Church in contrast to the poverty of many. But, there has often been an emphasis on charity.

It seems likely that hierarchies are central to most aspects of social life, independently of religion or science. There are still big aspects of social inequality. At least in England presently there is a welfare state and the NHS which are able to support people because in many parts of the world there is not much available of this kind. It is to hold onto these that brought big lockdowns, especially the idea of the NHS being overwhelmed. But, the events of the last couple of years have made so many aspects of life in the world very unstable.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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JackDaydream wrote: January 18th, 2022, 10:15 am @ stevie

It does seem likely that ideas of religion, science and politics come together in different ways for different people conceptually. It may go back to childhood socialisation and how people are taught to think about them.That may be the specific emphasis or value based on them, even if that is questioned or revised later.

Personally, I was brought up with religious ideas as being central. Also, I was taught left wing views but not as extreme ones. I saw religious ideas and some political ideas as linked, through ideas such as CND and protest music. When I first went to university I was attending Christian Union and Marxist meetings, but aware the two didn't really work together exactly. It was some time shortly after this that I really began to question all my beliefs.

It does seem that people have different ways of thinking about the relationships. It is possible to be a Christian left or right wing person and there is the movement of liberation theology. However, philosophy includes ideas about whether or not there is God, life after death, as well as ideas about science and political values. So, in that sense philosophy is the master of such thinking. As all of these areas are central to life, I am surprised that most people are not that interested in philosophy. On some level, it is likely that most people do wonder about all these areas at some point in their lives, but some people more than others.
Wow there seems to be involved quite some autobiographical thinking. Don't know whether such kind of thinking is useful ... but I've never experienced the usefulness of it which is why I don't engage in such kind of thinking.
mankind ... must act and reason and believe; though they are not able, by their most diligent enquiry, to satisfy themselves concerning the foundation of these operations, or to remove the objections, which may be raised against them [Hume]
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by JackDaydream »

@stevie

Yes, it may be that the reason why you find my thinking a little difficult or strange because it does involve a fair amount of autobiographical reflection. Part of the reason why I probably think in that style is because I did some psychotherapy training. So , it may mean that the way I think and write is a bit different from the way people often write in philosophy. I have come across one philosopher, Bryan Magee, who writes philosophy in an autobiographical way. But, I guess that many on this site may find my approach a bit different from what they expect on a forum.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by Rhys Griffin »

Fascinating topic...

I have never found any essential conflict between science and religion, although those tensions are played up on both sides in the minds and word of particular people. Certain forms of religion tend to demonize science as atheistic or overly secular, but I don't believe that is true of science itself. Science is a methodology, not a set of conclusions which need to rival all religious ideas. I started out as a scientist, studying biochemistry. My heart was in experimentation and exploration of morphology. Later I switched to philosophy and religion and have studied all three tracks throughout my life.

I would also point out that religion is a generic term. The variety and diversity of beliefs, practices and stances is mind-boggling. It is grossly unfair to lump all religion into one bucket. It may be that today we are seeing a powerful assertion of conservative Christian voices, such that some people now see "Christian" as a synonym for right wing Republicans. But the history of Christianity shows far more variety, in regard to science and politics. If we add in the other religions of the world, we see other forms of diversity from Reform Judaism to Orthodox and Chasidic. Islam also had considerable variety, although the press plays up the most conservative and most intolerant sectors. Many of the debates that occur between science and religion also occur within religions themselves.

Politics. Over a century ago Robert G. Ingersoll warned that having any church calling the shots in the politics of America would spell the end of liberty. In any case, the role of religion in politics is really the issue, and it has been for the 2000 years of Christianity, with antecedents in Judaism. A look at history reveals waves of change, from times when religion and politics tended to separate, to times when politics imported the energy of religion to fuel its campaigns, marrying certain brands of religion hope to political visions.

To me the essential issue is whether politics truly respects the best of religious visions or merely exploits the fears and hopes of those who claim to be religious.

I would also add that Calvinists tend to see poverty as a sign that one lacks the grace of God. We could trace Calvinism to Puritans to New England Protestantism in general to Max Weber's analysis of the Protestant Ethic's contribution to modern economic society, although Weber's critique has lately been questioned.

I'll wrote more later.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by LuckyR »

JackDaydream wrote: January 18th, 2022, 11:55 am @LuckyR

I guess that there are probably a lot of rules within religious fundamentalism especially, and I can remember when I was a student that some extremely religious people used to tell me that the rock music I liked was the devil's music. Another main area of rules is over gay issues and sexuality in general. I am sure that there are a lot of rules in Islam and of course, there is so much political struggle around Islam vs Christianity, and even race comes into it.

However, there is a level of community support within churches. There is probably some group affinity within politics. I am not sure if there is within science but there is probably some academic group affiliation. The main thing is that it is religion and politics which play such a role behind the organisation of social life, historically. It was in the context of science that religion began to play a less powerful role. But, there are probably also links still existing behind the scenes based on movements linked to religious bodies, like the Freemasons but it is hard to know how much power such organisations have.
Ah, I see where we differ. I am speaking of the leadership of political parties, religions and scientific researchers, you are at least partially speaking of the membership of religions, political parties and those who believe in science.
"As usual... it depends."
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