The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

Post by Gee »

JackDaydream wrote: January 18th, 2022, 12:28 pm Definitely it seems that religion and science can be complementary in many ways. My understanding is that Darwin was not an atheist at all. It does surprise me how so many people seem to think that the idea of evolution and atheism must go together.
Agreed. I read that in his later life, Darwin was disturbed by the way people took his ideas and used them to attack religion. I suppose he felt a little like the guy, who split the atom, after viewing the devastation of Hiroshima. I don't know why we take new knowledge and use it like a dagger to attack former ideas, but we do. Maybe we think the attack is necessary in order to kill the old knowledge.

Evolution is a process, atheism is a belief -- although atheists will deny that it is a belief. So the atheists take evolution, the process, and use it to attack creationism, a different belief, to prove that the atheist's belief is more valid -- which is a crock of bull as neither belief is entirely accurate, nor is it entirely invalid. Rather than attacking each belief, I chose to consider where the ideas merged and took what we know about evolution, chemistry, consciousness, and "God" ideas, merged them and showed that there is a viable pathway between consciousness and evolution. And I did it in a science forum, which was a lot of work.
JackDaydream wrote: January 18th, 2022, 12:28 pm When I was a child and first heard a teacher, who said he was an atheist, speaking of the theory of evolution I was horrified because I had been taught the story of creation by my family and at church. However, as a teenager, when I was at a Catholic school, I found that the teachers there were in support of the idea of evolution or trying to think how to interpret it. I found an English teacher helpful as he pointed to the way in which the Book of Genesis is so different from the way in which science or newspapers are written. It is based on oral traditions and folklore which was passed down. It is not as if the writers of it witnessed the 7 days of creation or the actual Adam and Eve.

Yes. It is always important to remember that religion is a study of emotion, and emotion is difficult to pin down, to put into words, and to relate, so it lends itself to story telling. If the story comes to the same conclusion that science comes to, no matter how they got there -- they are both correct.
JackDaydream wrote: January 18th, 2022, 12:28 pm So much of the difference between science and religion is on a symbolic level, even though many religious believers do take ideas concretely.
Regarding the symbolism, this is because religion is a study of emotion. Remember that emotion is subjective, so if I wanted to share a feeling, let us say hate, with you, I could tell you about a circumstance that caused me to hate strongly. Would telling you about that cause you to have the same strong feeling? Probably not; you may be able to identify with my story, but it would not be the same. Although emotion does not share the same way knowledge does, if that emotion is symbolized, the knowledge of that symbol can be shared, which in turn can share the emotion. Much like a flag can symbolize all of the things we feel about our country, allowing us to share that emotion when in the presence of a flag. I suspect this is where archetypes come from -- I think they are the product of trillions of human minds over millennia that have symbolized feelings in the unconscious.

As far as believers taking ideas concretely, I think that has to do with intelligence and age. When I was in elementary school, one of my teachers had a plaque on the wall which stated; great minds think about ideas, average minds think about events, and lesser minds think about people. This is true, and I think that most leaders whether religious or secular know this. Religion provides the ideal/belief for the greater minds; the events like church on Sunday, picknicks, Bible studies, and rituals for the average minds; and the personas for the lesser minds. Secular governments do the same thing providing the ideals of the government, parades and holidays, and portraits of leaders. Since the "greater" minds make up about 15% of the populace, that leaves a lot of people to internalize the other more physical aspects of the teachings into symbolic and concrete concepts.
JackDaydream wrote: January 18th, 2022, 12:28 pm One of the major aspects is the idea of miracles and the supernatural.
Miracles and the supernatural are simply events that we do not yet know the cause of. Nothing to get upset about.
JackDaydream wrote: January 18th, 2022, 12:28 pm There was a deep split between the early Church and Gnostic ideas, and this was linked to the political aspects of the church. The finding of the Gnostic gospels does represent a very different perspective on the life of Christ, especially in the raising of the issue of whether Mary of Magdalene was his sexual partner. Theologians recognize that the writers of the Gospels weren't really the names ones and it is probably only Paul who was the real writer. Within the development of Christianity, so much was down to the ideas and interpretations of Paul.
Have you ever been to the Vatican? We visited Rome fifty or so years ago, and I learned that there are basements in the Vatican where thousands of scrolls are stored. Remember that a scroll is simply a book that could have been written by anyone for any reason, but only those that have been studied and chosen to represent some truth have been incorporated into the Bible. The Vatican does not allow most of this information to get out.

Did you know that Mary of Magdalene was determined to be a prostitute about 400 years after her death? I believe it was St. Augustine, a prolific writer, who determined that. He also was responsible for most of the doctrine that initially promoted the Church. If you read Holy Blood Holy Grail, which was written in the 1970's, I think, they have a different interpretation. They think that Mary of Magdalene's relationship with Jesus was hidden in order to protect her because she was his wife, which would be the wife of an acclaimed leader of a subjugated people, and the question of legitimate children continues to this day. This book also notes that none of the Gospels were written within 100 years of Jesus's death. So there were a lot of stories passed before anything was written down.
JackDaydream wrote: January 18th, 2022, 12:28 pm I don't know a great deal about the historical circumstances of Calvinism. Generally, I understand that the idea was that people should live in poverty and be rewarded in the afterlife. In Christianity as a whole there was often a big division between the wealth of the Church in contrast to the poverty of many. But, there has often been an emphasis on charity.
Regarding Calvinism: Augustine wrote the initial Church doctrine which embraced Neoplatonism, but Augustine did not like Aristotle or logic. He thought that belief in "God" was enough to prove ideas valid. In the 1200's, Aquinas wrote new Church doctrine which accepted many of Aristotle's ideas. It took a few hundred years for this new work to reach enough people to create an impact in the Church, but it eventually was at the root of the split -- the Calvinists and Gnostics following Augustine.

Regarding the wealth of the church; it is important to understand that people will look at the clergy to determine the worth of the "God" that is represented, so it is not unreasonable to show a wealthy successful clergy. Of course, this wealth can lead to corruption.
JackDaydream wrote: January 18th, 2022, 12:28 pm It seems likely that hierarchies are central to most aspects of social life, independently of religion or science. There are still big aspects of social inequality. At least in England presently there is a welfare state and the NHS which are able to support people because in many parts of the world there is not much available of this kind. It is to hold onto these that brought big lockdowns, especially the idea of the NHS being overwhelmed. But, the events of the last couple of years have made so many aspects of life in the world very unstable.
Hierarchies are not just relative to human life. I can't think of any species that does not have some kind of hierarchy from ants and bees to wolves and elephants. I suspect that it is fundamental to nature.

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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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Arts and sciences are separate means by which men make sense of the world.

Religion is an art, not a science. As art, modern religion still takes much from theatre. Religion and theatre once were the same. Some sects respect that fact and make no bones about music, poetry, costumery, decor, bodily movements, and symbolism, and even smells. I am fully in sympathy with all of those as I have recovered from my more Calvinistic phase.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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This is a very interesting topic and I think one that reaches to the core of philosophy.

I disagree that religion is the study of emotion. That field of study is called psychology. Religion is more of a social phenomenon. I believe that science can explain religion. However, religious proselytes would not accept the explanations of science that contradict their teachings. From my years of being a Christian fundamentalist, I’ve observed that tribalism is played out in the church.
Ancient humans used to live in tribes. The members of the tribe depended on one another for their survival. People who were useless or dangerous were ostracized from the group. The teachings and beliefs of your tribe were taken as truth, and those outside your tribe were distrusted. There were no nebulous reasons for the rules and beliefs of your tribe because people did what they needed to do to survive. If you didn’t fit in with your tribe or follow your leader’s instructions, you could endanger your friends or lose an opportunity to obtain food.

Today, it’s much easier for us to have our own belief system, but we still have the primal urge to belong to a tribe. This is similar to the urge woman have to go out to bars, or men have to think in their man-cave. In my opinion, the origins of religion come from our natural behaviors as human beings. Religion has been refined and rationalized today to seem like a sophisticated development of morality. If you look closely at the reasons people have for what they believe, you’ll realize that its less about philosophy and truth and more about our need to belong to a tribe.
A few of us, like the ones participating in this forum, are drawn towards philosophy and science. We feel satisfied when things make sense and we have valid reasons for what we believe. However, we are in the minority my friends. Religion and politics have been bed-partners for thousands of years, but a few hundred years ago we learned that its best to separate the two. I think our collective intelligence has increased and we realized that government will use religion as a way to manipulate the common people and basically take their money. Democracy was born, and religious freedom came out.

Religion used to be essential in the distant past for civilization to emerge, but the modern man understands the basics of morality. Most of us don’t need religion to tell us that murder, slavery, and theft is wrong. Perhaps in remote parts of the world, where people have not been influenced by western culture, religion might still be necessary to teach people the ways of peace. But we’ve gone through two world wars and a hippy movement, and this has made us wise. Science and religion cannot be combined because, as people posted here, it is open to change. All it takes is for a scientist to uncover a mothership in Antarctica, and UFOs would end up in our children’s school books. This example is naïve because it’ll only work if politics allows it, but the point is that science doesn’t care about what facts are popular.

If you’re a philosopher at heart, and you’ve seriously thought about Christianity in the past, you’ve probably realized that there’s only two options for you. Either the Bible is telling the truth and all of it is valid, or it’s not and shouldn’t be followed blindly. The Bible does say that God created the Earth in six days. You can’t try to get around this and twist it to mean millions of years. To believe that the Earth is only about 6000 years old requires you to shut down your intellectual side and stop learning about scientific and archaeological discoveries. For some people this is okay, but it would make a philosopher miserable. This refers to Christianity, but there are a myriad of other religions out there.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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@Gee

I have never visited Rome but I am extremely interested about the scrolls. A nun told me of their existence and she spoke of people having come out of a meeting with sorrowful faces. Unfortunately, I have never met this nun again. It may be that there is so much of what is written which is not know by many.

I have grappled with understanding religious ideas because I was brought up with them. I did religious studies as part of my own university studies, but feel that barely touched upon the subject. I try to read, including some theology and comparative religion, but there is so much. It ranges from the academic to the popular ideas, such as the Grail legend and The Templars. I came across the ideas about Gnosticism mainly through reading the writings of Carl Jung. He has been one of the biggest influencers. I am also extremely interested in esoteric religion, including esoteric Christianity. But, it is sometimes hard to evaluate literature and work out what is accurate and that may be where it is so bound up with political agendas.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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@CalebB

I am interested by your reply but a little uncertain, from what you have written, whether you are suggesting that it has to be a choice between science or religion. I don't see how it can be all one or the other. Of course, I am aware of atheists who say that the ideas in religion are made up completely. That is not the angle I come from because I understand the religious perspective to be coming from a symbolic level. Also, in the opposite direction, some people take everything in the Bible literally. I guess my angle is about trying to think beyond these extremes for some clarity of thought, which is about reconciliation of science and religious approaches. The part where politics is likely to be in connection to the power and influences in the social structures in which these ideas developed.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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JackDaydream wrote: January 17th, 2022, 3:10 pm ...I do see them as interconnected. From childhood, I struggled with the clash between religion and science, trying to figure how to relate the issue of the Biblical story of creation with Darwin's theory of evolution.
[Christian] scriptural literalists - common in the USA, but rarer elsewhere - are a special case. I won't attack them directly, but I find it hard to sympathise with their point of view. The rest of us don't see friction, because there is none. The matters that science and religion legitimately and appropriately deal with, rarely overlap.

Like others, I see no direct link between religion, science and politics.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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Gee wrote: January 19th, 2022, 4:57 am I don't know why we take new knowledge and use it like a dagger to attack former ideas, but we do. Maybe we think the attack is necessary in order to kill the old knowledge?
Creation is much more difficult than destruction, so we tend to favour the latter, perhaps just because it's easier? 🤔
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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CalebB wrote: January 19th, 2022, 9:59 am I believe that science can explain religion. However, religious proselytes would not accept the explanations of science that contradict their teachings.
To all but extremists, there is no overlap between the two. Science cannot explain religion because the concepts that religion (mainly) deals with are actually invisible to science. It is difficult to see how science could explain any aspect of religion. Exactly the same reasoning applies to politics too. Science can't explain or inform politics, either.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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CalebB wrote: January 19th, 2022, 9:59 am Either the Bible is telling the truth and all of it is valid, or it’s not and shouldn’t be followed blindly.
The Bible - like the Mahabharata, and other sacred texts - offers spiritual truths, not literal ones. Their language, and the language of science, differ markedly, even though they use the same words. Scriptural literalists are ... a special case.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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JackDaydream wrote: January 17th, 2022, 2:07 pm Of course, I am aware that Christianity is not the only religion and I am extremely interested in the diversity of comparative religion.
That seems at odds with your posts. When you write about religion, the religion you describe, even if you don't name it, is Christianity...? 🤔
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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@Pattern-chaser

I will explain the apparent contradiction in me saying that I am interested in comparative religion and, the way in which I go on to write about Christianity. It is simply that I grew up in the context of a Catholic background. My mother was a convert to Cathoicism from the Church of England because she disagreed with Henry V111's movement so that he could have many wives. My father was brought up In Ireland by the Christian Brothers. Within the Catholicism I was brought up with in England there was an emphasis on links between all Christian religions, but not with other religions generally.

I do challenge that and I do read on ideas of comparative religious outlooks, especially Hinduism and Buddhism. I find the idea of Atman and Brahman, God and the human merging together so inspiring. I do find that the ideas in Buddhism are also helpful, especially because there is less emphasis on sin and guilt, and it is questionable whether Buddhism is even a religion.

But the reason why I focus more on Christianity is because it is rhe starting point. Really, I try to come from the widest possible viewpoint and I am interested and not opposed to atheism. I have not read the Koran at all but have friends who are Muslim. I come from a wide angle and find the dialogue and underlying quest for truth to be so important and I am not convinced there is one which is absolute. Besides, there is the whole of life to think about it all as part of the ongoing philosophy quest. So, I am extremely interested in Christianity but all the other points of view, so my head will probably explode at some point! I guess that I just don't understand why people wish to come to conclusions immediately.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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CalebB wrote:
I believe that science can explain religion. However, religious proselytes would not accept the explanations of science that contradict their teachings.
Sociology explains religion as a necessary function of human societies.

There are many 'proselytes' of more liberal sects such as the Society of Friends, and the Unitarians, who accept explanations from both social scientists, and historians.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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CalebB wrote:
Religion used to be essential in the distant past for civilization to emerge, but the modern man understands the basics of morality. Most of us don’t need religion to tell us that murder, slavery, and theft is wrong. Perhaps in remote parts of the world, where people have not been influenced by western culture, religion might still be necessary to teach people the ways of peace.
The Roman Catholic Church was the only repository and legitimator of the Christian moral code for many centuries in western Europe. Western Europe is now mostly post-Christian which means that the moral code remains as a secular moral code that is legitimated by institutions other than the RC church such as educators, the law, and medical personnel.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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@Belindi

Your approach as seeing religious perspectives as being an art is one which makes sense to me, but, in some ways, it is probably fairly unusual. That is because most people who are religious don't think of it as an art, but that may be because there is so much literal thinking. The symbolic aspects of life as portrayed in theatre and the arts often get missed. It may be that the whole realm of anthropology and mythology are important and they are undervalued and even the arts are often thought of as entertainment rather than the search for meaning.
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Re: The Unholy Trinity: How Do Religion, Science and Politics Come Together or Clash?

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@Rhys Griffin

Thanks for your reply and it seems that you have thought a lot about the relationships between religion, science and politics. It is fairly complex because they are such enormous areas of thought. There is so much variety of thought and each individual may juxtapose them differently. When you speak of how politics respects the vision of religious perspectives, it leads me to think of the dialectical materialism of Marxism.

Also, science has lead to more of an emphasis on humanism. Bertrand Russell was an atheist philosopher but he paid attention to the peace protests against nuclear weapons. It may be that it can sometimes appear as a battle between religious beliefs and atheism, but politics and ideologies get to the depths of human values and philosophy has a key role in disentangling the full nature of the underlying ideas and values.
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