What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

Post by LuckyR »

GE Morton wrote: April 14th, 2022, 1:10 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 14th, 2022, 3:59 am
Being accused of cancel culture by folks who previously dominated the conversation and are now shocked (I mean shocked) to find that there is no Right to have one's views accepted isn't an example of a difficulty, it is the way the Real World works (plus it is kind of humorous).
Er, who is accusing whom of "cancel culture"?
Well, Sy brought it up (literally in the post I cited), though didn't mention by whom.
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 14th, 2022, 8:35 am
Yes, this is 'stealth-trolling' - preventing discussion by filling a topic (that they disagree with) with trivial quibbling, and equally-trivial objections, demands for definitions, and moans concerning 'burden of proof'. It really winds me up, even though it shouldn't. 😤😳
GE Morton wrote: April 14th, 2022, 1:33 pm Well, PC, defining one's terms and accepting the burden of proof for one's claims are de rigueur for rational discussion. Indeed, essential to it.
Any participant in a discussion contributes as they may. Sometimes they make a claim that is not, and maybe cannot be, substantiated. This weakens the claim they have made, but might not invalidate it; it remains a contribution. I think the only burden that a contributor to a discussion bears is to contribute positively, if they can, and always with courtesy. All else is distraction, maybe posturing.
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 14th, 2022, 4:54 pm
Any participant in a discussion contributes as they may. Sometimes they make a claim that is not, and maybe cannot be, substantiated. This weakens the claim they have made, but might not invalidate it; it remains a contribution. I think the only burden that a contributor to a discussion bears is to contribute positively, if they can, and always with courtesy. All else is distraction, maybe posturing.
I guess it depends upon whether you consider an unsubstantiated claim (unless it is offered as an hypothesis), or an easily falsifiable one, to be a "positive contribution." I don't.

An hypothesis is not substantiated when proposed, of course. It's purpose is to launch a search for evidence which either confirms or disconfirms it.
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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Belindi wrote: April 14th, 2022, 5:55 amTrue about the meaning of the apple in Eden, and the benefit of meditation. Somewhere in The Bible is "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof". The Buddhists have the psychology correct, that craving is bad for your health.

Your observation about the mass psychology of trash journalism: it feeds into a magic- consciousness, i.e. the superstition that if we worry enough about it we will propitiate the gods and stave it off.
Worry is ultimately alertness towards possible future threats. Do you think perhaps there's also a touch of "hair shirt" suffering, the sense that paying dues with suffering now saves on worse suffering later?

The idea seems reasonable in everyday life, at least. For instance, suffering now with hard exercise saves on worse suffering later with physical ailments and ennui. Working on an essay now will save a student a more intense struggle to complete the work later on. (Then again, I once knew an artist who would wait until a few days before an exhibition to start painting, because she felt her best work came under pressure).

So often sound ideas of the past become twisted by misinterpretation or irrational application. That perhaps describes the history of organised religion in a single sentence.
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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Sy Borg wrote: April 14th, 2022, 7:57 pm
Belindi wrote: April 14th, 2022, 5:55 amTrue about the meaning of the apple in Eden, and the benefit of meditation. Somewhere in The Bible is "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof". The Buddhists have the psychology correct, that craving is bad for your health.

Your observation about the mass psychology of trash journalism: it feeds into a magic- consciousness, i.e. the superstition that if we worry enough about it we will propitiate the gods and stave it off.
Worry is ultimately alertness towards possible future threats. Do you think perhaps there's also a touch of "hair shirt" suffering, the sense that paying dues with suffering now saves on worse suffering later?

The idea seems reasonable in everyday life, at least. For instance, suffering now with hard exercise saves on worse suffering later with physical ailments and ennui. Working on an essay now will save a student a more intense struggle to complete the work later on. (Then again, I once knew an artist who would wait until a few days before an exhibition to start painting, because she felt her best work came under pressure).

So often sound ideas of the past become twisted by misinterpretation or irrational application. That perhaps describes the history of organised religion in a single sentence.
Yes, the essence of superstition is misplaced attribution of causes. The predicted effects of the causes in your illustrations are backed by plenty of evidence whereas superstitions and magical thinking is founded on craving and lack of knowledge of how to satisfy the craving. The Cargo Cults (anthropology) show how ignorance of actual causes of events lead to useless rituals; and that applies to many religionists doing their rituals and applying their notions of "sins". Faith is one thing but superstition is not the same as faith.
In 1964, Peter Lawrence described the term as follows: "Cargo ritual was any religious activity designed to produce goods in this way and assumed to have been taught [to] the leader [of the cargo cult] by the deity"
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: April 14th, 2022, 4:54 pm
Any participant in a discussion contributes as they may. Sometimes they make a claim that is not, and maybe cannot be, substantiated. This weakens the claim they have made, but might not invalidate it; it remains a contribution. I think the only burden that a contributor to a discussion bears is to contribute positively, if they can, and always with courtesy. All else is distraction, maybe posturing.
GE Morton wrote: April 14th, 2022, 7:14 pm I guess it depends upon whether you consider an unsubstantiated claim (unless it is offered as an hypothesis), or an easily falsifiable one, to be a "positive contribution." I don't.

An hypothesis is not substantiated when proposed, of course. It's purpose is to launch a search for evidence which either confirms or disconfirms it.
Couldn't an unsubstantiated claim act in exactly the same way as a proposed hypothesis? No need for it to be offered as an hypothesis, for it to achieve the same effect.
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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Sy Borg wrote: April 14th, 2022, 1:20 am Perhaps the most difficult part of philosophy is stopping people with a single agenda from hijacking threads that might have been philosophical! If I try to keep things on track I am accused of cancel culture.
I know it can't be easy but I appreciate the effort to keep things on track. It's a tough balancing act to allow freedom of expression while trying to keep people from abusing the privilege.
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 14th, 2022, 8:35 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 14th, 2022, 4:05 am In truth, they are effectively cancelling others via opportunity costs, taking up air space that others could have used if given the chance.
Yes, this is 'stealth-trolling' - preventing discussion by filling a topic (that they disagree with) with trivial quibbling, and equally-trivial objections, demands for definitions, and moans concerning 'burden of proof'. It really winds me up, even though it shouldn't. 😤😳
Right there with you...
Belindi wrote: April 14th, 2022, 11:34 am It's always best to use plain English. The concept of Dasein, or more simply
being-there, addresses how each being-there is unique, so social controls i.e. criminal law, religious 'sin', and ordinary gossip should be as non-controlling and forgiving as possible.
I like that idea but I like the plain English just as much. I don't know why we have to muddle things with jargon and fancy names for concepts that aren't always so tough to understand. I think philosophy could do more good for more people if we kept it as simple as possible.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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Belindi wrote: April 15th, 2022, 4:44 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 14th, 2022, 7:57 pm
Belindi wrote: April 14th, 2022, 5:55 amTrue about the meaning of the apple in Eden, and the benefit of meditation. Somewhere in The Bible is "Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof". The Buddhists have the psychology correct, that craving is bad for your health.

Your observation about the mass psychology of trash journalism: it feeds into a magic- consciousness, i.e. the superstition that if we worry enough about it we will propitiate the gods and stave it off.
Worry is ultimately alertness towards possible future threats. Do you think perhaps there's also a touch of "hair shirt" suffering, the sense that paying dues with suffering now saves on worse suffering later?

The idea seems reasonable in everyday life, at least. For instance, suffering now with hard exercise saves on worse suffering later with physical ailments and ennui. Working on an essay now will save a student a more intense struggle to complete the work later on. (Then again, I once knew an artist who would wait until a few days before an exhibition to start painting, because she felt her best work came under pressure).

So often sound ideas of the past become twisted by misinterpretation or irrational application. That perhaps describes the history of organised religion in a single sentence.
Yes, the essence of superstition is misplaced attribution of causes. The predicted effects of the causes in your illustrations are backed by plenty of evidence whereas superstitions and magical thinking is founded on craving and lack of knowledge of how to satisfy the craving. The Cargo Cults (anthropology) show how ignorance of actual causes of events lead to useless rituals; and that applies to many religionists doing their rituals and applying their notions of "sins". Faith is one thing but superstition is not the same as faith.
In 1964, Peter Lawrence described the term as follows: "Cargo ritual was any religious activity designed to produce goods in this way and assumed to have been taught [to] the leader [of the cargo cult] by the deity"
An interesting parsing of superstition and faith. The former latter being on misinterpretations and the latter based on solid, but incomplete, evidence.
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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chewybrian wrote: April 15th, 2022, 9:55 am
Sy Borg wrote: April 14th, 2022, 1:20 am Perhaps the most difficult part of philosophy is stopping people with a single agenda from hijacking threads that might have been philosophical! If I try to keep things on track I am accused of cancel culture.
I know it can't be easy but I appreciate the effort to keep things on track. It's a tough balancing act to allow freedom of expression while trying to keep people from abusing the privilege.
It sure is tough. In all these years I've not managed it in a way that I feel is satisfactory.

The situation echoes society's. How do you work within the rules with those who have no regard for the rules? There is asymmetry, like a boxer operating by Marquess of Queensbury rules pitted against an armed streetfighter.

Ultimately, it's to the advantage of those who embrace fascism (in whatever form) to break rules and try to push rule-keepers to break their own rules. In that way, the rules break down, always driven by, and to the advantage of those, who want the rules gone. This plays out in societies, with increasing intransigence forcing ever stricter "crackdowns", which then enforces the narrative that the rule-keepers are inherently corrupt and power-mad. Then, when they have power, they can rationalise aggression by painting it as a crackdown.

In terms of elections, claims of cheating in clean elections makes it far easier for those who are prepared to cheat to do what they claimed was done to them. If anyone complains, they paint the situation as tit for tat. It's a standard fascist move.
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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Pattern-chaser wrote: April 15th, 2022, 6:35 am
Couldn't an unsubstantiated claim act in exactly the same way as a proposed hypothesis? No need for it to be offered as an hypothesis, for it to achieve the same effect.
The difference is that someone who offers an hypothesis does not claim it is true, and welcomes evidence bearing on its truth. A person making an unsubstantiated claim is convinced its true, and typically does not want to hear arguments or consider evidence to the contrary. It is a "matter of faith."
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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GE Morton wrote: April 15th, 2022, 7:41 pm A person making an unsubstantiated claim is convinced its true, and typically does not want to hear arguments or consider evidence to the contrary.
Not necessarily. You extend your story of an unsubstantiated claim to describe a person who is unwilling to indulge in discussion, to bolster your own beliefs on the matter. I submit that your claims are unsubstantiated. 😆 But it doesn't matter; it's not important enough to pursue. 👍
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 16th, 2022, 8:48 am
GE Morton wrote: April 15th, 2022, 7:41 pm A person making an unsubstantiated claim is convinced its true, and typically does not want to hear arguments or consider evidence to the contrary.
Not necessarily. You extend your story of an unsubstantiated claim to describe a person who is unwilling to indulge in discussion, to bolster your own beliefs on the matter. I submit that your claims are unsubstantiated.
I said "typically." Not everyone who makes an unsubstantiated claim is unwilling to consider evidence against it. But they do present the claim with the belief that it is true, unlike the person presenting an hypothesis (for whom its truth is an open question).
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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GE Morton wrote: April 16th, 2022, 11:36 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 16th, 2022, 8:48 am
GE Morton wrote: April 15th, 2022, 7:41 pm A person making an unsubstantiated claim is convinced its true, and typically does not want to hear arguments or consider evidence to the contrary.
Not necessarily. You extend your story of an unsubstantiated claim to describe a person who is unwilling to indulge in discussion, to bolster your own beliefs on the matter. I submit that your claims are unsubstantiated.
I said "typically." Not everyone who makes an unsubstantiated claim is unwilling to consider evidence against it. But they do present the claim with the belief that it is true, unlike the person presenting an hypothesis (for whom its truth is an open question).
I agree that the word "typically" encapsulates our experience in this Forum nicely.
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

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GE Morton wrote: April 16th, 2022, 11:36 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: April 16th, 2022, 8:48 am
GE Morton wrote: April 15th, 2022, 7:41 pm A person making an unsubstantiated claim is convinced its true, and typically does not want to hear arguments or consider evidence to the contrary.
Not necessarily. You extend your story of an unsubstantiated claim to describe a person who is unwilling to indulge in discussion, to bolster your own beliefs on the matter. I submit that your claims are unsubstantiated.
I said "typically." Not everyone who makes an unsubstantiated claim is unwilling to consider evidence against it. But they do present the claim with the belief that it is true, unlike the person presenting an hypothesis (for whom its truth is an open question).
🤣🤣🤣 It gets better and better!

First you make an unsubstantiated claim: that people who make unsubstantiated claims contribute negatively to the discussion.

Then it turns out that your claim is not only unsubstantiated, but also wrong. So you ascribe to your innocent targets (people who make unsubstantiated claims) an attribute that would make their contribution negative: that such people "typically" do not want to hear arguments or consider evidence to the contrary. This is a second unsubstantiated claim, even though "typically" gives you deniability (which you exploit in your reply, above).

It is not only those who make unsubstantiated claims who do not want to hear arguments or consider evidence to the contrary; anyone could/can do this, and yes, they are indeed a negative contribution to the discussion.

So, unwilling to hear arguments or consider evidence to the contrary, you continue to defend your initial, and unsubstantiated, claim, that those who make unsubstantiated claims contribute negatively.

Hoist by your own petard, I suggest?

🤣🤣🤣
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Re: What is the most difficult part of philosophy (for you)?

Post by GE Morton »

Pattern-chaser wrote: April 17th, 2022, 7:31 am
First you make an unsubstantiated claim: that people who make unsubstantiated claims contribute negatively to the discussion.
That was not an unsubstantiated claim. It wasn't a claim at all. It was the expression of an opinion, and a response to your statement, "I think the only burden that a contributor to a discussion bears is to contribute positively, if they can, and always with courtesy." To which I responded with, "I guess it depends upon whether you consider an unsubstantiated claim (unless it is offered as an hypothesis), or an easily falsifiable one, to be a 'positive contribution.' I don't."

A claim is a proposition which purports to be a statement of fact, and has a determinable truth value. Statements of opinion or approval/disapproval are not claims.

"Claim (tr. v): 3. To state to be true, especially when open to question; assert or maintain: claimed he had won the race; a candidate claiming many supporters."

https://www.ahdictionary.com/word/search.html?q=claim

So to paraphrase: I don't consider unsubstantiated claims (as above defined) to contribute positively to any substantive discussion.
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