Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
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Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
1. After conception, first we start out as any other organism, we are fully automatic beings.
2. But then as we get old enough, maybe a few months or 1-2 years old, or maybe even prior to that? It somehow happens, something switches on, we are somehow suddenly "there". Some may call it "being conscious", "having a presence", "being". It's a general sensation of existing, of being there. We just start to exist.
3. And then not much time later, maybe a few months or a year later, but still in early childhood, this general raw self-awareness is channeled into a focal point (in men) or focal points (in women? not sure how it works for them). And that's what we call the "I". Eastern philosophy calls it the "ego" (not to be confused with Western meaning of ego, two different things). This focus mechanism seems to be identification itself, apart from being capable of being a control mechanism. Identification is born out of the raw self-awareness.
The history of humanity has been the history of "I", and now humans are born into an environment where all the adults around them are completely in this "I" mode of existence, "ego"-ic mode of existence. Our culture, our language, the world we built are all reflecting this. So unless someone has rather serious brain issues, it seems rather unavoidable that children develop the ego. And then from that point on, that's who and what they think they are.
4. Western philosophy takes the "I" for granted, it doesn't look into it fundamentally, just deals with it on the surface level. Eastern philosophy is often about deconstructing the "I", breaking it, seeing through it, which leads to "awakening".
But even if we've been through this process, the "I" will pop up again and again. Because even though we've cracked it (cracked "ourselves"), that doesn't make the raw-self awareness also disappear, that the "I" is born from. We would probably have to literally remove a part of our brain for that, not a good idea.
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Now what the hell is raw self-awareness, how did we get from 1. to 2.? People fantasize about building self-aware machines, and maybe one day they will (conscious machines). It seems to be some kind of soft emergence in the organism brain, maybe it's the best example of actual soft emergence. In the vast majority of organisms it doesn't seem to happen, in a few it does seem to happen. But so far they don't seem to have been able to connect it to any particular brain regions, it's like the ghost in the organism or machine. I think it's the hardest problem from Chalmers's "Easy problems" category.
So previously I assumed that it's probably some kind of soft emergence, which can only happen when a brain is large enough and maybe shaped in particular ways.
The best approach they've found so far is the mirror test. Great apes, elephants, dolphins and orcas I'd say seem to have raw self-awareness, and we can also tell that from their behaviour aside from mirror-tests. I'd certainly add whales to the list. Actually I think that elephants and whales seem to be the most self-aware organisms on the planet, aside from humans. When I listen to the song of whales, I can't help but wonder that maybe they even possess more raw self-awareness than we humans do.
And these species all have big brains. I thought the "limit" was maybe around 10-50 billion neurons. I've come to the conclusion that cats and dogs, no matter how much they live with us and no matter how tricky they are, and no matter what kind of personality they have, aren't self-aware.
But there is one more big candidate for self-awareness, ravens crows and other corvids. They have very small brains compared to the others, so I dismissed this finding as a fluke. But the more I watch their behaviour, the more I think that yeah they seem to be somehow self-aware. That's fascinating. The problem-solving, the tool-usage, just how they carry themselves like they were little entities, they seem to mourn their dead. Some even think that they might have some rudimentary form of shared telepathy (like their self-aware minds were linked on a higher organizational level of the universe).
If corvid self-awareness is true, then nature has given us a big clue, a big opportunity. Future studies will have to compare the corvid brain to all the other bird brains, and try to find the big difference. If someone has already looked into this and knows what the difference could be, please present it.
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
Because there don't seem to be any definitive answers and I don't have the time now to immerse myself in the topic. It says corvids have bigger brains compared to their body size than other birds, and they have high neuron density in their foreheads.
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
Well if one is interested then on has to take the time and the effort. But I understand that in terms of entertainment posting in forums and exchanging speculations is straightforward.
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
You're very wise, so show some clear scientific evidence for the mechanism of self-awareness, that doesn't contain speculation.
- AgentSmith
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
We're self-aware only in the sense and extent that there's an x with which we identify with. For example, I am AgentSmith, I see myself as AgentSmith, if someone were to call out "AgentSmith", I'd look to see if it isn't me s/he's referring to and so on.
The catch is there's no consensus as to what value the variable x is to be given? Is it, broadly speaking, the body, the mind, both, neither?
Status: We have a variable for identity (x), but it's a mystery what the value of x is. Unknown quantity x. Can we evaluate the equation for x? I dunno! If it's so easy, why hasn't anyone done it yet? This is the metaphysical enigma of identity/self-awareness.
Corvids, they say, are exceptionally intelligent, Do they identify themselves visually, the image in a reflecting surface (the mirror test)?
To use the mirror test alone is to be biased in favor of animals that are visually more advanced. Dogs can identify themselves using scent. Dogs too have to be accepted into the exclusive clique of seof-aware creatures. How about ants? Do they have chemical IDs they can use to recognize themselves? I think they do. Cum grano salis, please.
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
I think the problem of self-awareness can never be explained by science because, if it is considered from a scientific perspective, it leads to contradiction. I have already explained this difficulty in my preceding post on Chalmers, here I would like to express its basics, to make it more clear.
The experience of self-awareness is experience of you being a subject. It is your experience of your subjectivity.
Subjectivity means opinion, something that you are unable to show somehow objectively. For example, if I see an orange I can say “I think it is not good inside, but I’m not sure”. If we open it and we show that it is really bad inside, subjectivity stops, doesn’t exist anymore. Let’s leave aside for now further criticism about objectivity.
In this context, self-awareness can be defined as subjectivity about subjectivity, which is, my opinion about my feeling “I”.
Science, on principle, doesn’t deal with opinions. Until we don’t open the orange, science has nothing to say, it’s not its field of research, science is not and cannot be interested at all in opinions. Science comes into action when something shareable is found.
The consequence is that, about the phenomenon of self-awareness, science can only deal with the shareable aspects of it. This means that, in order to make self-awareness something scientific, we need to define some aspects of it that are objective, which means, verifiable by anybody, at anytime.
Given that self-awareness starts always as a subjective feeling, a subjective experience, there is always in it an amount of experience that remains impossible to put objectively in terms of words, definitions, objective facts and elements, things that everybody can see and check.
In other words, if I tell you that I feel “I” and you tell me about your feeling “I”, none of us will ever be able to be 100% sure that what we share as experience of self-awareness is the whole, or the essence, of our inner experience of feeling “I”. I cannot destroy the doubt inside me that makes me ask to myself: am I sure that what he calls “I” is the same experience that I am feeling about my feeling “I”?
This problem involves actually all experiences, not only the experience of feeling “I”. If say “orange”, I will never be able to know to what extent your experience of an orange is the same as mine. We are 100% sure that there will ever be an amount of experience of the orange that will remain enclosed in our subjectivity, impossible to put entirely in terms of words and objective facts.
Even if in the future science will be able to reveal the 100% of neural phenomenons that produce our subjective experiences, this is not equivalent to enable you to “feel like a bat” whenever you want.
Even if in the future science will be able to make us temporarily be real bats, there would be a contradiction about understanding it: if, while I am a bat, I remember my preceding being a human, then I am not a real bat; if, when I go back to being a human, I remember my experience of having been a bat, then it is not anymore the experience of being a bat, because it is filtered by my present being a human. The problem of the curiosity of experimenting the existence of a bat is not just a practical, technical problem. It contains contradictions already in the theory. It is a contradictory curiosity.
The same applies about me wanting to understand how I would feel if I was you. After what I said, we need to realize that this will, this curiosity, is itself contradictory.
The consequence is that subjectivity cannot be studied by science, because the very idea of objectively understanding subjectivity is contradictory, as I have shown.
An interesting question would be now the following one: what is that thing that I have been talking about, about which I said it is impossible to reach?
At this point we can easily realize that I cannot explain my experience of being “I” even to myself. Feeling does not mean understanding, nor being able to understand.
So, what I have done is just an explanation of some logical and epistemological contradictions, but it is clear that I have not explained at all what I am talking about! Otherwise, we would have really found the solution to the problem.
This can be considered even a more radical, basic, elementary situation: when we talk about self-awareness, it is impossible, by principle, to explain what we are talking about.
How can we think that science can be able to explore something that by principle is impossible to explain by words?
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
Since I have not expressed any thesis I don't see why I should provide any evidence. Are you looking for someone doing the review work for you?Atla wrote: ↑March 13th, 2022, 5:53 amYou're very wise, so show some clear scientific evidence for the mechanism of self-awareness, that doesn't contain speculation.
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
Guess you're just too ignorant to know that there's no such evidence yet.stevie wrote: ↑March 13th, 2022, 7:41 amSince I have not expressed any thesis I don't see why I should provide any evidence. Are you looking for someone doing the review work for you?Atla wrote: ↑March 13th, 2022, 5:53 amYou're very wise, so show some clear scientific evidence for the mechanism of self-awareness, that doesn't contain speculation.
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
To add this:
Scientific evidence is by nature non-speculative. However the interpretations of scientific evidences often are speculations. That is why scientific hypotheses have to be carefully designed so that the corresponding experimental setting and its results either directly support or reject the hypotheses.
Your hypothesis "[there is a] mechanism of self-awareness" is far too broad and unfocused to count as scientific hypothesis.
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
I am far too scientific to accept your hypothesis as scientific hypothesis: see viewtopic.php?p=406999#p406999Atla wrote: ↑March 13th, 2022, 7:59 amGuess you're just too ignorant to know that there's no such evidence yet.stevie wrote: ↑March 13th, 2022, 7:41 amSince I have not expressed any thesis I don't see why I should provide any evidence. Are you looking for someone doing the review work for you?
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
I mostly disagree, as an "Eastern" nondualist I've come to the conclusion that self-awareness, the organism mind and "THE consciousness/existence itself" are three different things, that just happen to coincide in the human mind. Chalmers, and Western philsophy in general including Western phenomenology, aren't even in the ballpark to solve the Hard problem.Angelo Cannata wrote: ↑March 13th, 2022, 7:29 amI think the problem of self-awareness can never be explained by science because, if it is considered from a scientific perspective, it leads to contradiction. I have already explained this difficulty in my preceding post on Chalmers, here I would like to express its basics, to make it more clear.
The experience of self-awareness is experience of you being a subject. It is your experience of your subjectivity.
Subjectivity means opinion, something that you are unable to show somehow objectively. For example, if I see an orange I can say “I think it is not good inside, but I’m not sure”. If we open it and we show that it is really bad inside, subjectivity stops, doesn’t exist anymore. Let’s leave aside for now further criticism about objectivity.
In this context, self-awareness can be defined as subjectivity about subjectivity, which is, my opinion about my feeling “I”.
Science, on principle, doesn’t deal with opinions. Until we don’t open the orange, science has nothing to say, it’s not its field of research, science is not and cannot be interested at all in opinions. Science comes into action when something shareable is found.
The consequence is that, about the phenomenon of self-awareness, science can only deal with the shareable aspects of it. This means that, in order to make self-awareness something scientific, we need to define some aspects of it that are objective, which means, verifiable by anybody, at anytime.
Given that self-awareness starts always as a subjective feeling, a subjective experience, there is always in it an amount of experience that remains impossible to put objectively in terms of words, definitions, objective facts and elements, things that everybody can see and check.
In other words, if I tell you that I feel “I” and you tell me about your feeling “I”, none of us will ever be able to be 100% sure that what we share as experience of self-awareness is the whole, or the essence, of our inner experience of feeling “I”. I cannot destroy the doubt inside me that makes me ask to myself: am I sure that what he calls “I” is the same experience that I am feeling about my feeling “I”?
This problem involves actually all experiences, not only the experience of feeling “I”. If say “orange”, I will never be able to know to what extent your experience of an orange is the same as mine. We are 100% sure that there will ever be an amount of experience of the orange that will remain enclosed in our subjectivity, impossible to put entirely in terms of words and objective facts.
Even if in the future science will be able to reveal the 100% of neural phenomenons that produce our subjective experiences, this is not equivalent to enable you to “feel like a bat” whenever you want.
Even if in the future science will be able to make us temporarily be real bats, there would be a contradiction about understanding it: if, while I am a bat, I remember my preceding being a human, then I am not a real bat; if, when I go back to being a human, I remember my experience of having been a bat, then it is not anymore the experience of being a bat, because it is filtered by my present being a human. The problem of the curiosity of experimenting the existence of a bat is not just a practical, technical problem. It contains contradictions already in the theory. It is a contradictory curiosity.
The same applies about me wanting to understand how I would feel if I was you. After what I said, we need to realize that this will, this curiosity, is itself contradictory.
The consequence is that subjectivity cannot be studied by science, because the very idea of objectively understanding subjectivity is contradictory, as I have shown.
An interesting question would be now the following one: what is that thing that I have been talking about, about which I said it is impossible to reach?
At this point we can easily realize that I cannot explain my experience of being “I” even to myself. Feeling does not mean understanding, nor being able to understand.
So, what I have done is just an explanation of some logical and epistemological contradictions, but it is clear that I have not explained at all what I am talking about! Otherwise, we would have really found the solution to the problem.
This can be considered even a more radical, basic, elementary situation: when we talk about self-awareness, it is impossible, by principle, to explain what we are talking about.
How can we think that science can be able to explore something that by principle is impossible to explain by words?
The Hard problem concerns "THE consciousness", or the problem of qualia / existence in general. The eternal first person view, witness-consciousness, the "happening" itself. The what-it's-like experience, the direct experience. This thing is universal, it's just existence itself, humans are it just as rocks are it. It's the world. You're right that this can't be explained by science, because it's a philosophical problem.
"THE consciousness" isn't produced by our brains, instead everything is "THE consciousness" including the scientific process and the scientists with their instruments, that's quite hilarious actually.
Then we have the organisms in the world, some of them with fairly advanced brains. In other words there are the organism minds in the world.
And a fraction of these organisms also seem to be self-aware. Something unique seems to be going on with their organism minds.
And in most humans from this self-awareness, the "I" is born. Well if we treat these two separately, then it can be said that four things coincide in the typical human mind: the "I", the self-awareness, the human organism mind, and "THE consciousness/existence itself".
I think I sufficiently understand all these except the raw self-awareness part. In my view self-awareness is the most difficult one in Chalmers's "Easy problems" category, but it's an easy problem so it's science's job to solve this one.
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
Then why did you direct me to look into the sciences that deal with the topic?stevie wrote: ↑March 13th, 2022, 8:02 amI am far too scientific to accept your hypothesis as scientific hypothesis: see viewtopic.php?p=406999#p406999
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
Because your approach is not scientific.Atla wrote: ↑March 13th, 2022, 8:07 amThen why did you direct me to look into the sciences that deal with the topic?stevie wrote: ↑March 13th, 2022, 8:02 amI am far too scientific to accept your hypothesis as scientific hypothesis: see viewtopic.php?p=406999#p406999
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Re: Corvids and the mystery of self-awareness
I did say that some of this may just be my conjecture. But what do you think is more likely, that there is something to self-awareness or not?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
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