The 'Problem' of Mortality: Is Death the End of Everything?

[Raymond]

Raymond,
I feel eternal recurrence would be unpleasant, even if I could not remember any previous occurrences of this universe's times, places, and events. What is horrible is the prospect of nothing new happening, and meaninglesrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitonmeaninglessrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitionmeani__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why should nothing new happen?

[JackDaydream]

Raymond,
I feel eternal recurrence would be unpleasant, even if I could not remember any previous occurrences of this universe's times, places, and events. What is horrible is the prospect of nothing new happening, and meaninglesrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitonmeaninglessrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitionmeani__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why should nothing new happen?

If eternal recurrence was real there would be a tension between to what extent would there be changes? That is because even though you say small changes, the minute ones have dramatic effects to absolutely everything. That is why it seems more plausible as a symbolic possibility than a literal, causal one.

I can see you think that eternal recurrence would be awful if people had to go through all their bad experiences over and over again. What would be the purpose? It is hard enough going through life experiences which are tough once without going through them repeatedly without succumbing to stress and depression. Just imagine someone who is has some serious medical condition. Would they be born with that repeatedly? Would people who had traumatic experiences in childhood or later have to have them again and again? Would people always have the same families and relationships?

[Raymond]

Raymond,
I feel eternal recurrence would be unpleasant, even if I could not remember any previous occurrences of this universe's times, places, and events. What is horrible is the prospect of nothing new happening, and meaninglesrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitonmeaninglessrepetitionmeaninglessrepetitionmeani__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Why should nothing new happen?

If eternal recurrence was real there would be a tension between to what extent would there be changes? That is because even though you say small changes, the minute ones have dramatic effects to absolutely everything. That is why it seems more plausible as a symbolic possibility than a literal, causal one.

I can see you think that eternal recurrence would be awful if people had to go through all their bad experiences over and over again. What would be the purpose? It is hard enough going through life experiences which are tough once without going through them repeatedly without succumbing to stress and depression. Just imagine someone who is has some serious medical condition. Would they be born with that repeatedly? Would people who had traumatic experiences in childhood or later have to have them again and again? Would people always have the same families and relationships?

Dunno. Why shouldn't drastically different stories of you, me, and every creature of the universe be able to unfold? You and me in another universe on a different planet, speaking different languages, experiencing a different culture even? We, still being our bodies, but with different things happening in our brainy world and physical world. I can conceive that to happen. Which doesn't mean I long for a next life! It's just that there is not much to conclude in my cosmology, which can be seen even as rooted in my theology. Or vice-versa. One thing I'm convinced of though. Gods give meaning to life. Science (although very interesting, I even luvit!) can't give meaning or a reason for our existence.

[Pattern-chaser]

[E]volution will be different each time but I think all creatures that were, are, and will be alive in the present universe will be reborn again.

If evolution is different, it seems very likely indeed that all the creatures, the individual creatures will not, and could not, be born again as they were in a different previous world.

[Raymond]

[E]volution will be different each time but I think all creatures that were, are, and will be alive in the present universe will be reborn again.

If evolution is different, it seems very likely indeed that all the creatures, the individual creatures will not, and could not, be born again as they were in a different previous world.

But in that previous world they are all literally gone. Only photons will be left. In the next universe, "fresh" particles new particles come into play.

[Sy Borg]

[E]volution will be different each time but I think all creatures that were, are, and will be alive in the present universe will be reborn again.

If evolution is different, it seems very likely indeed that all the creatures, the individual creatures will not, and could not, be born again as they were in a different previous world.

There was a fellow who called himself Atreyu, who used to talk about eternal recurrence. I didn't like the idea any more then than I do now, not that what I like matters.

All that struggle and strain over many years, passing through various challenging stages of life, to achieve maturity and peace - and then soon afterwards we are presented with our worst agonies before completing this session in the slow motion meat grinder we call life. Yay! Let's do it again!

If that's the case, I am not playing ball until I have an upgrade.

[Pattern-chaser]

[E]volution will be different each time but I think all creatures that were, are, and will be alive in the present universe will be reborn again.

If evolution is different, it seems very likely indeed that all the creatures, the individual creatures will not, and could not, be born again as they were in a different previous world.

But in that previous world they are all literally gone. Only photons will be left. In the next universe, "fresh" particles new particles come into play.

OK, so in your next universe, the fresh particles will surely interact differently from the previous universe, if only for the reason that they themselves are different? And won't this result in a different universe, containing different individuals?

[Raymond]

"OK, so in your next universe, the fresh particles will surely interact differently from the previous universe, if only for the reason that they themselves are different?"

But the question is, different from what? All previous particles have gone, turned to photons and these accelerated away from each other into oblivion, zero energy, a new vacuum state. Which is the "sign" for the central 4D singularity to spit out two 3D universes again. And we'll live again! Jippiejahey! I've been depressed quite often but have good times too!

[JackDaydream]

"OK, so in your next universe, the fresh particles will surely interact differently from the previous universe, if only for the reason that they themselves are different?"

But the question is, different from what? All previous particles have gone, turned to photons and these accelerated away from each other into oblivion, zero energy, a new vacuum state. Which is the "sign" for the central 4D singularity to spit out two 3D universes again. And we'll live again! Jippiejahey! I've been depressed quite often but have good times too!

Like you, I have times of depression and good times too. The way in which you are thinking about mortality, the universe and particles is important. However, there are many complex aspects of this area of thought. It may be that your thinking about eternal recurrence as a possibility is connected to the way in which life is embodied. The repetition of aspects of physical manifestations of consciousness in the idea of eternal recurrence is something which I have wondered about. However, I do wonder if it is far too concrete, and ideas about resurrection and reincarnation may be too concrete. Therefore, I do wonder about whether they are symbolic rather than anything more, although it is possible to ask what are symbols? That is where the metaphysics of mind and matter throw up questions about questions about the nature of consciousness and whether it is confined to mortal bodies.

[Pattern-chaser]

"OK, so in your next universe, the fresh particles will surely interact differently from the previous universe, if only for the reason that they themselves are different?"

But the question is, different from what?

Different from the particles that formed the previous universe. And because they're different, they will surely interact differently, with the result that the new universe will not be the same as the old one, and will surely not contain carbon-copies of the individuals that existed in the old universe. Your rationale for reincarnation just doesn't work for me, I'm afraid.

[JackDaydream]

"OK, so in your next universe, the fresh particles will surely interact differently from the previous universe, if only for the reason that they themselves are different?"

But the question is, different from what?

Different from the particles that formed the previous universe. And because they're different, they will surely interact differently, with the result that the new universe will not be the same as the old one, and will surely not contain carbon-copies of the individuals that existed in the old universe. Your rationale for reincarnation just doesn't work for me, I'm afraid.

As far as I can see, Raymond was advocating the idea of eternal recurrence as opposed to reincarnation. However, I got into similar difficulties with reincarnation. In particular, there is the idea of souls being reborn with karmic connections with other souls.It is hard to see how this comes into play; even though I have come across a few people who have suggested that they may have known me in a former life. It would be hard to figure out how the interactive possibilities work out from one life to life. I do not see the complexity of this ruling out the idea of reincarnation entirely. However, it does raise questions about continuity as people are in complex dynamics with other human beings in life.

[Raymond]

"Therefore, I do wonder about whether they are symbolic rather than anything more, although it is possible to ask what are symbols?"

In other words, you ask if it really happens or is a fantasy? I think it really happens. The particles produced in the big bang behind us are identical to the ones in this universe and I can see no reason why they can't lead to new appearances of all of us. In different situations though. Of course you can think of all kinds of variations on this theme. It has nothing to do with a discontent about myself or whatever. I just think it turns out like that. And the gods give meaning to it. Maybe a kind of moral too, but not in a biblical sense. More to take care of their creation. For their own (the gods) good! They just wanna lay back easily and watch us, all creatures in the universe, to act out the eternal actings with which they grew bored. The existential void that got a grip of heaven is filled by the watching of the universe they collectively cooked up (the fundamentals, that is, from which everything develops time after time, and over and over, to use the immortal words uttered by member and fellow player butimfeeling over and over again...).

[JackDaydream]

"Therefore, I do wonder about whether they are symbolic rather than anything more, although it is possible to ask what are symbols?"

In other words, you ask if it really happens or is a fantasy? I think it really happens. The particles produced in the big bang behind us are identical to the ones in this universe and I can see no reason why they can't lead to new appearances of all of us. In different situations though. Of course you can think of all kinds of variations on this theme. It has nothing to do with a discontent about myself or whatever. I just think it turns out like that. And the gods give meaning to it. Maybe a kind of moral too, but not in a biblical sense. More to take care of their creation. For their own (the gods) good! They just wanna lay back easily and watch us, all creatures in the universe, to act out the eternal actings with which they grew bored. The existential void that got a grip of heaven is filled by the watching of the universe they collectively cooked up (the fundamentals, that is, from which everything develops time after time, and over and over, to use the immortal words uttered by member and fellow player butimfeeling over and over again...).

The question of what symbols are is extremely important in thinking of images, ideas and imagination. In many ways, I end up concluding that ideas of resurrection, reincarnation and eternal recurrence are symbolic, but that does lead onto the question of the what are symbols? How much is fantasy and how much is about attempts to find answers which cannot be expressed in words. This does verge onto mysticism but it may be that the problem of death is of the nature that it arouses imagination in trying to think of beginnings, ends and new beginnings. This may be pondered and explored in words but it may be that rational logic fights against the idea of the end of the self and what that may mean.

[Raymond]

"This may be pondered and explored in words but it may be that rational logic fights against the idea of the end of the self and what that may mean."

Yes indeed. It's hard to imagine there is nothing after death. I saw, coincidentally (accidentally?) a guy on TV, a Dutch singer, who said he felt it a liberating thought that when you die there will be nothing always (it was about religion, which by the way is a popular subject, also its philosophy! It's got more threads than the philosophy of science). But what does he know? That's a belief all the same.

[tjjt1936]

Most of the issues you have raised can be answered by reading a small book by Martin Foss. “Death,Sacrifice and Tragedy.” Cartesian rationalism and phenomenology are a dead end if that is the approach one takes in pursuing the problem of death from any perspective. Life is consciousness and it is what need to focus on.