Does free Will and determinism mix?

Use this philosophy forum to discuss and debate general philosophy topics that don't fit into one of the other categories.

This forum is NOT for factual, informational or scientific questions about philosophy (e.g. "What year was Socrates born?"). Those kind of questions can be asked in the off-topic section.
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Belindi »

Arbu123 wrote: June 23rd, 2022, 8:37 pm Here’s a hypothetical question. Say you went to a psychic because you were drunk and frisky and when she leaned over, she dropped her magic ball and you saw the future…if you could change what you saw, would determinism be incorrect?
No. Determinism does not imply prediction.
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by LuckyR »

Belindi wrote: June 24th, 2022, 12:41 pm
Arbu123 wrote: June 23rd, 2022, 8:37 pm Here’s a hypothetical question. Say you went to a psychic because you were drunk and frisky and when she leaned over, she dropped her magic ball and you saw the future…if you could change what you saw, would determinism be incorrect?
No. Determinism does not imply prediction.
True, it does not require prediction, though it is consistent with prediction.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Belindi »

LuckyR wrote: June 27th, 2022, 10:38 pm
Belindi wrote: June 24th, 2022, 12:41 pm
Arbu123 wrote: June 23rd, 2022, 8:37 pm Here’s a hypothetical question. Say you went to a psychic because you were drunk and frisky and when she leaned over, she dropped her magic ball and you saw the future…if you could change what you saw, would determinism be incorrect?
No. Determinism does not imply prediction.
True, it does not require prediction, though it is consistent with prediction.
We don't altogether enjoy determinism as we'd much rather control our futures. A determined universe is controllable to some extent, and that extent is usually chance (luck ,fortune) and prediction ( probability). The discovery of disease germs, and penicillin, are recent examples of the combination of chance and choice.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Belindi wrote: June 28th, 2022, 5:52 am A determined universe is controllable to some extent
No it isn't. It wouldn't be "determined" if it was.
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Belindi »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:26 am
Belindi wrote: June 28th, 2022, 5:52 am A determined universe is controllable to some extent
No it isn't. It wouldn't be "determined" if it was.
I understand why you would think so.

However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.

NB This is not to imply Free Will is the case. It's the claim that determinism implies the future is potential only until it's the past whereupon each actual event becomes a necessary event. We and other intelligent animals create the future partly by choice and partly by chance or 'fortune'. The more that a choice is well- informed about regularities the more probably that choice will nail the future.

The process of establishing and explaining past events is imprecise for reasons well known to historians and psychologists. That we go on surviving is a surprise so it's little wonder successful people believe in Providence!
User avatar
MigMike
New Trial Member
Posts: 1
Joined: June 29th, 2022, 9:44 am

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by MigMike »

I think Domenic Halvah's latest book pretty much proves that they don't mix. :D
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Belindi wrote: June 28th, 2022, 5:52 am A determined universe is controllable to some extent
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:26 am No it isn't. It wouldn't be "determined" if it was.
Belindi wrote: June 29th, 2022, 4:58 am I understand why you would think so.

However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.
I'm not quite clear what you're getting at here. If the universe is determined, doesn't that mean that each and every event that occurs — or can occur — was determined before it happened? [I.e. the outcome of the event was determined, and the fact that the event itself happened was also determined.]
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
User avatar
LuckyR
Moderator
Posts: 7935
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 1:16 am

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 29th, 2022, 1:02 pm
Belindi wrote: June 28th, 2022, 5:52 am A determined universe is controllable to some extent
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:26 am No it isn't. It wouldn't be "determined" if it was.
Belindi wrote: June 29th, 2022, 4:58 am I understand why you would think so.

However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.
I'm not quite clear what you're getting at here. If the universe is determined, doesn't that mean that each and every event that occurs — or can occur — was determined before it happened? [I.e. the outcome of the event was determined, and the fact that the event itself happened was also determined.]
Or put another way, in a Determined universe, antecedent state A always leads to resultant state B, never to resultant state C.
"As usual... it depends."
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Belindi »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 29th, 2022, 1:02 pm
Belindi wrote: June 28th, 2022, 5:52 am A determined universe is controllable to some extent
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:26 am No it isn't. It wouldn't be "determined" if it was.
Belindi wrote: June 29th, 2022, 4:58 am I understand why you would think so.

However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.
I'm not quite clear what you're getting at here. If the universe is determined, doesn't that mean that each and every event that occurs — or can occur — was determined before it happened? [I.e. the outcome of the event was determined, and the fact that the event itself happened was also determined.]
I'm not an expert on all deterministic theories of being. The one I outlined draws on an analogy from physics ; there is potential energy and also kinetic energy. So I am claiming there is potential reality and also actualised reality. My version of determinism also allows for chance like how a physicist allows for indeterminacy.

It may be the case that the strong determinism which you describe is the truth. I too used to believe this and I can see the sense of it. In all cases of determinism including yours and mine there is no reason for Free Will so-called.

Among other nonsense about 'Free Will' there is the evil-generating nonsense that of all life forms the human is the only life form that can originate an event.
User avatar
Pattern-chaser
Premium Member
Posts: 8268
Joined: September 22nd, 2019, 5:17 am
Favorite Philosopher: Cratylus
Location: England

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Belindi wrote: June 28th, 2022, 5:52 am A determined universe is controllable to some extent
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:26 am No it isn't. It wouldn't be "determined" if it was.
Belindi wrote: June 29th, 2022, 4:58 am I understand why you would think so.

However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 29th, 2022, 1:02 pm I'm not quite clear what you're getting at here. If the universe is determined, doesn't that mean that each and every event that occurs — or can occur — was determined before it happened? [I.e. the outcome of the event was determined, and the fact that the event itself happened was also determined.]
Belindi wrote: June 30th, 2022, 3:57 am I'm not an expert on all deterministic theories of being. The one I outlined draws on an analogy from physics ; there is potential energy and also kinetic energy. So I am claiming there is potential reality and also actualised reality. My version of determinism also allows for chance like how a physicist allows for indeterminacy.
I thought the "indeterminacy" that the physicist allows for is a lack of certainty, called by another name? I'm sorry, I'm examining my words all the time to try to avoid nit-picking, honestly. But this just won't fall into a sensible pattern for me.

A determined world means that event A happens, always, in the one and only way that it is determined to happen, regardless of everything that happened before, during or after that event. It seems like an absolute requirement; no wiggle-room available.

If determinism is not absolute, then what else could it be? What could it mean if predetermined events mostly come to pass? To me, it would mean that the world is not determined. 🤔


Belindi wrote: June 30th, 2022, 3:57 am Among other nonsense about 'Free Will' there is the evil-generating nonsense that of all life forms the human is the only life form that can originate an event.
👏👍
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"
Belindi
Moderator
Posts: 6105
Joined: September 11th, 2016, 2:11 pm

Re: Does free Will and determinism mix?

Post by Belindi »

Pattern-chaser wrote: June 30th, 2022, 8:20 am
Belindi wrote: June 28th, 2022, 5:52 am A determined universe is controllable to some extent
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 28th, 2022, 8:26 am No it isn't. It wouldn't be "determined" if it was.
Belindi wrote: June 29th, 2022, 4:58 am I understand why you would think so.

However some predictions are more probably true to what the future will be. No future event is a necessary event until it is an actual event. You can actualise future events i.e. make them happen by means of reason or even good guesses and act so to influence what will happen.
Pattern-chaser wrote: June 29th, 2022, 1:02 pm I'm not quite clear what you're getting at here. If the universe is determined, doesn't that mean that each and every event that occurs — or can occur — was determined before it happened? [I.e. the outcome of the event was determined, and the fact that the event itself happened was also determined.]
Belindi wrote: June 30th, 2022, 3:57 am I'm not an expert on all deterministic theories of being. The one I outlined draws on an analogy from physics ; there is potential energy and also kinetic energy. So I am claiming there is potential reality and also actualised reality. My version of determinism also allows for chance like how a physicist allows for indeterminacy.
I thought the "indeterminacy" that the physicist allows for is a lack of certainty, called by another name? I'm sorry, I'm examining my words all the time to try to avoid nit-picking, honestly. But this just won't fall into a sensible pattern for me.

A determined world means that event A happens, always, in the one and only way that it is determined to happen, regardless of everything that happened before, during or after that event. It seems like an absolute requirement; no wiggle-room available.

If determinism is not absolute, then what else could it be? What could it mean if predetermined events mostly come to pass? To me, it would mean that the world is not determined. 🤔


Belindi wrote: June 30th, 2022, 3:57 am Among other nonsense about 'Free Will' there is the evil-generating nonsense that of all life forms the human is the only life form that can originate an event.
👏👍
I know. I still have to think about it.

Compare possibility and probability. Possibility is strongly determined and indeed I can't deny that what's possible is possible and that's that.

Probability depends on variables. The classic example of billiard balls on a billiards table illustrates how probabilities can be artificially limited so that the billiard balls are simply push me pull you. Technologies are all causal artifacts for purposes of limiting unwanted variables. Kettles are made of strong enough materials so they can contain boiling water.

Most events are not technological artefacts, and the possibilities of natural events are infinite. Possibilities apply to future events and probability is what we make use of to try to foresee what will be happening and how to make use of what will be happening. Unlike us, God is a strongly deterministic idea as He can not only know future events but He can also actualise future events .

We, not being God, must live in the world of possibilities as regards not only unactualised events but also interpretations of past events and ongoing circumstances.This scary situation we are in is not only about what we can know, it's also about what is the case.
Post Reply

Return to “General Philosophy”

2023/2024 Philosophy Books of the Month

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise

Entanglement - Quantum and Otherwise
by John K Danenbarger
January 2023

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul

Mark Victor Hansen, Relentless: Wisdom Behind the Incomparable Chicken Soup for the Soul
by Mitzi Perdue
February 2023

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness

Rediscovering the Wisdom of Human Nature: How Civilization Destroys Happiness
by Chet Shupe
March 2023

The Unfakeable Code®

The Unfakeable Code®
by Tony Jeton Selimi
April 2023

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are

The Book: On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are
by Alan Watts
May 2023

Killing Abel

Killing Abel
by Michael Tieman
June 2023

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead

Reconfigurement: Reconfiguring Your Life at Any Stage and Planning Ahead
by E. Alan Fleischauer
July 2023

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough

First Survivor: The Impossible Childhood Cancer Breakthrough
by Mark Unger
August 2023

Predictably Irrational

Predictably Irrational
by Dan Ariely
September 2023

Artwords

Artwords
by Beatriz M. Robles
November 2023

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope

Fireproof Happiness: Extinguishing Anxiety & Igniting Hope
by Dr. Randy Ross
December 2023

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes

Beyond the Golden Door: Seeing the American Dream Through an Immigrant's Eyes
by Ali Master
February 2024

2022 Philosophy Books of the Month

Emotional Intelligence At Work

Emotional Intelligence At Work
by Richard M Contino & Penelope J Holt
January 2022

Free Will, Do You Have It?

Free Will, Do You Have It?
by Albertus Kral
February 2022

My Enemy in Vietnam

My Enemy in Vietnam
by Billy Springer
March 2022

2X2 on the Ark

2X2 on the Ark
by Mary J Giuffra, PhD
April 2022

The Maestro Monologue

The Maestro Monologue
by Rob White
May 2022

What Makes America Great

What Makes America Great
by Bob Dowell
June 2022

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!

The Truth Is Beyond Belief!
by Jerry Durr
July 2022

Living in Color

Living in Color
by Mike Murphy
August 2022 (tentative)

The Not So Great American Novel

The Not So Great American Novel
by James E Doucette
September 2022

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches

Mary Jane Whiteley Coggeshall, Hicksite Quaker, Iowa/National Suffragette And Her Speeches
by John N. (Jake) Ferris
October 2022

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All

In It Together: The Beautiful Struggle Uniting Us All
by Eckhart Aurelius Hughes
November 2022

The Smartest Person in the Room: The Root Cause and New Solution for Cybersecurity

The Smartest Person in the Room
by Christian Espinosa
December 2022

2021 Philosophy Books of the Month

The Biblical Clock: The Untold Secrets Linking the Universe and Humanity with God's Plan

The Biblical Clock
by Daniel Friedmann
March 2021

Wilderness Cry: A Scientific and Philosophical Approach to Understanding God and the Universe

Wilderness Cry
by Dr. Hilary L Hunt M.D.
April 2021

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute: Tools To Spark Your Dream And Ignite Your Follow-Through

Fear Not, Dream Big, & Execute
by Jeff Meyer
May 2021

Surviving the Business of Healthcare: Knowledge is Power

Surviving the Business of Healthcare
by Barbara Galutia Regis M.S. PA-C
June 2021

Winning the War on Cancer: The Epic Journey Towards a Natural Cure

Winning the War on Cancer
by Sylvie Beljanski
July 2021

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream

Defining Moments of a Free Man from a Black Stream
by Dr Frank L Douglas
August 2021

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts

If Life Stinks, Get Your Head Outta Your Buts
by Mark L. Wdowiak
September 2021

The Preppers Medical Handbook

The Preppers Medical Handbook
by Dr. William W Forgey M.D.
October 2021

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress: A Practical Guide

Natural Relief for Anxiety and Stress
by Dr. Gustavo Kinrys, MD
November 2021

Dream For Peace: An Ambassador Memoir

Dream For Peace
by Dr. Ghoulem Berrah
December 2021